Nirodbaran

Talks with Sri Aurobindo

Volume 1

10 December 1938 – 14 January 1941

11 December 1938

As usual, Sri Aurobindo lying on his bed and looking towards us. Reports were reaching us that some people who had stayed in the Ashram for a number of years, but at last had to leave it for committing acts of treachery, were now spreading calumnies against us and were even going to the length of saying that they would destroy the whole Ashram. One of these unbalanced vilifiers had been given refuge in the Ashram, not because of his Yogic capacity but on the intercession of a sincere sadhak who happened to be his relative. This man was now trying to bite the hand that had fed him. We were very indignant at such a brazen manifestation of ingratitude and at the same time amused by his presumptuous utterances. This incident brought in the general subject of our talk.

Nirodbaran: Is there no justice? Surely such people will have to pay the penalty of their actions? But how is it they are the ones who succeed in life?

Sri Aurobindo: Justice in this life? May not be, most probably not. But what is justice? It is not what most people believe it to be. The common idea is that the virtuous will be rewarded with happiness and prosperity in the next life while the wicked will have the opposite results. In that case the people you speak of must have been virtuous in their previous birth. Well, that’s not my idea of justice. There is true justice in the sense that the good people advance towards a Sattwic nature while those with the contrary disposition go down the scale of humanity: they become more and more Asuric. That is what I have said in the Arya.

At this moment the Mother came in. It was the time for her to go downstairs to the Meditation Hall and give a general meditation. Every evening before going down, she used to come and sit for a while in Sri Aurobindo’s room, sometimes taking part in the conversation, sometimes meditating. Naturally during her meditation we used to keep quiet. As soon as she entered, she asked Sri Aurobindo with a smile, “Are they again making you talk?” Dr. Manilal put in promptly, “No, Mother, no. We want him to take rest.” Everyone, including Sri Aurobindo, burst into laughter. When the noise had subsided, the Mother, seated as usual on the sofa, inquired, “What is the talk about?” Sri Aurobindo replied on our behalf, “They are asking if justice exists.’’ The Mother opened her eyes very wide, and we again laughed. Sri Aurobindo then narrated in brief the incidents which had prompted our talk and the turn the talk had taken.

The Mother: Of course, there is justice. Do you think these people can have an easy and comfortable life? They can’t; they suffer, they are tormented, they are not happy within.

Nirodbaran: But that unhappiness does not seem to change them. They go from bad to worse.

The Mother: Probably, but in some cases as the Divine pressure goes on acting on them, at one time or another, especially during some impending catastrophe, a sudden change takes place in them. We have seen a number of cases like that. For example, those who were trying to persecute Sri Aurobindo when he first came here.

But by justice you mustn’t mean that certain qualities will not get results favourable to them. Among those people whom you mention, one may be a scoundrel, but if he has capacity and cleverness he will surely succeed in life, for it is these qualities that meet with success, not always virtue or piety.

Nirodbaran: To know how to cheat people and get their money – is it cleverness?

The Mother: Of course it is; or you may say it is a misuse of cleverness. I don’t say that this kind of cleverness will not have its consequences, but it can’t be denied at the same time that people with such qualities succeed in life.

Nirodbaran: You have said in your Prayers and Meditations that justice exists and one can’t avoid the law of Karma except by the Divine Grace. Why doesn’t one believe in this Grace?

The Mother (after looking for some time with meditative eyes): Because the human mind arranges and combines things, accepts or eliminates them according to its own notion and judgment. It does not leave any room for the Grace. For instance, one is cured of a disease or passes an examination; one thinks it is due to medicine or one’s effort. One doesn’t see that in between these factors or behind them there may be the Grace acting on one. (Turning to Sri Aurobindo) Isn’t that so?

Sri Aurobindo: People would call it luck, I suppose. (Laughter)

The Mother: If one does not recognise the Grace, how can it work? It is as if one had shut one’s door against it. Of course, it can work from below, underneath, so to speak.

Nirodbaran: Doesn’t the Grace act unconditionally?

The Mother: It does, especially on those who have been predestined for some definite work in life. Yes, the Grace is unconditional; but at the same time how will it work if a man is throwing it away or doesn’t recognise it? It would be like constantly spilling from a cup in which something is being poured. If one recognises the Grace and expresses gratitude, it acts more quickly and more powerfully.

Nirodbaran: Isn’t it because we are ignorant that we don’t recognise it?

The Mother: No; I know many ignorant people who having received the Grace have expressed a deep gratitude welling up from the heart.

Dr. Manilal: We should like the Grace to act like a mother feeding her infant when it is hungry and supplying things when needed.

Sri Aurobindo: And who is this infant here? (Loud laughter)

The Mother: But the Grace does not work according to human standards or demands. It has its own law and its own way. How can it act otherwise? Very often what seems to be a great blow or calamity at the present moment may turn out to be a great blessing after ten years or so, and people say that their real life began only after that mishap.

(After a short pause in a half-withdrawn mood, then taking up the thread of the original topic) I am interested to see what will be the reactions of those people. The results may be different in each, but I can’t say just now in what way.

Nirodbaran: Will it be only a difference of degree?

The Mother: No, a difference of quality also; for one may be more stupid and blind than another who may be conscious of what he is aiming at. So the former has less power to harm.

Nirodbaran: Perhaps one of them may change for the better.

The Mother: In what sense?

Nirodbaran: He may turn to the divine life again.

The Mother: That is romance!

Nirodbaran: But Satyendra may come to the Ashram once more – since he was here a good number of years.

The Mother (amused): Do you think so? When a man who has been given a chance deliberately turns his back on the Divine, he spoils his possibility. That he had a possibility is, on the other hand, shown by the fact that he was given a chance.

With these words the Mother left for the general meditation and we formed our usual ring around Sri Aurobindo. Dr. Manilal started the talk.

He began by describing at length the Jain law of Karma, most of which was too deep for some of us. He was, by the way, very fond of quoting Jain Shastras whenever an opportunity presented itself and seemed to be quite an adept. Terms like Jiva, Tirthankara, Utkata Karma, etc. used to flow frequently from him and Sri Aurobindo also used to show interest in his declamations, sometimes joking at his theories and putting him into tight corners from which he tried to wriggle out somehow. At times he used to take Sri Aurobindo’s railleries and cross-questioning very seriously. Looking far towards some horizon, with eyes slightly narrowed as if he had gone into the times of Mahavira and surveyed the history of Jainism, he would begin, in one of his characteristic manners, “Jainism says, Sir –” But before he had time to indulge his eloquent fervour, we would sometimes shout, “There, there, the doctor with his Jainism again,” and there would be chuckles all over the room. As it is difficult to report abstruse technical things correctly, it is best to touch only on some relevant portions of the talk, with an apology if justice is not wholly done to the theories expounded.

Dr. Manilal began to expound the Jain law of Karma and ended by saying how even the Tirthankaras could not escape this rigorous law: they also had to pay in exact mathematical measures.

Sri Aurobindo: It seems to be a great thing – but too wonderful and mathematical to be true! There was an illustration of this mathematical theory in the example of a son who, although he lived only for a short time, cost his father a great deal of money because of his ill-health. It was explained that the father had been the debtor of the son in his previous life and the son had realised by these expenses the exact amount of money he had lent to the father. Well, what do you say?

Dr. Manilal: No, Sir. That can’t be the real explanation. Somebody must have cut a joke or exaggerated. There is what is called Vikacit Karma or Utkata Karma, which can’t be avoided. It is like a knot which can’t be untied.

Sri Aurobindo: It may be then this Utkata Karma that caused my accident!

Dr. Manilal: Why this unmerited suffering in your case?

Sri Aurobindo: How do you know it is unmerited? Perhaps it was to give me knowledge of intense pain. The pains I had experienced so far were of an ordinary nature which I could transform into Ananda. But this was intense. And since it came swiftly and suddenly, I could not change it into Ananda. But when it settled down into a steady sensation I could. Besides, we shall see afterwards its full significance. Of course, I accept it as a part of the battle.

Dr. Manilal: When will you be cured?

Sri Aurobindo: I can’t say and, even if I could, the hostile forces would at once rush up to prevent the cure. That is why I don’t want to prophesy about anything. Not that things are not known beforehand or possibilities not seen. There are things about which I have definitely pronounced in advance. But where it is a question of possibilities, I don’t tie myself down to any; for if I do that, I commit myself in advance to certain lines of movement and the result of them may not be what I wanted. Consequently I would not be able to bring down what I was striving for.

But plenty of people can prophesy and among Yogis that capacity is very common. When I was arrested, my maternal grandaunt asked Vishuddhananda, “What will happen to our Auro?” He replied, “The Divine Mother has taken him in her arms: nothing will happen to him. But he is not your Aurobindo, he is the world’s Aurobindo and the world will be filled with his perfume.” Narayan Jyotishi also, who did not know me, foretold my three trials, my white enemies and my release. When my horoscope was shown to him, he said there was some mistake about the time of my birth. When it was corrected, he remarked, “Ah, the lead is turned into gold now.”

(Turning to Dr. Manilal) Have you had any prophetic dreams?

Dr. Manilal: Not as far as I remember, but Ambegaukar’s daughter-in-law once said that she had seen him being carried to the burning ghat and exactly two hours later he died.

Sri Aurobindo: That’s a good instance.

Dr. Manilal: But, as in the case of you and Vishuddhananda, can one prophesy about a person without even knowing him?

Sri Aurobindo: Why not? Prophesying is an intuitive power. I once tried to see a man whom we wanted to get appointed as Governor here. I saw a figure seated in an office, but a person totally unknown and quite different from the one we wanted. After some time, a quarrel broke out between my brother-in-law Bose and a Government official. He was summoned to the office, but the letter addressed to him bore by mistake the name “Ghose” instead of “Bose”. So I had to go and I found to my surprise the very man in my vision sitting as the Governor.

On another occasion, a friend of C.R. was coming to see me. I wanted to have a vision of the man. I saw a man with a clean-shaven head and a bull-dog face, but when he turned up it was a man with quite a different appearance – regular South Indian Brahmin features. But curiously enough, about two years later when I met him again I found that he had completely changed to what I had seen in my vision! These things are thrown out in this way from the subtle world to the surface consciousness.

Take another instance. I was in the past a great tea-addict; I could not do any work without my cup of tea. Now, the management of the tea was in the hands of my brother-in-law. He used to bring it any time he woke up from his sleep. One day I had a lot of work to do but couldn’t get into it without the tea. I began to think, “When will he bring it, why doesn’t he come?” So far I had never asked anybody for anything for myself. Suddenly I found that a particular time was written on the wall before me, and exactly at that time the tea was brought in.

Dr. Manilal: Is the consciousness of the Divine possible in even the physical cells?

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, the cells can have peace and joy and other things. When they are quite conscious, they can throw opposing forces out. When peace descends into the physical being, it is a great force for cure.

Nirodbaran: Can one have peace without knowing it?

Sri Aurobindo: That would be neutral peace, though it would be more than quietude. But there is a positive peace which one knows and feels. Truth also can descend into the physical – and power as well, but very few can bear power. There is a descent of light too.

There is an infinite sea of peace, power, Ananda just above the head – what we call “overhead”. (Looking at Nirodbaran) And if one is in contact with it one can get these things always.

Dr. Manilal: Do any thoughts or suggestions come to you?

Sri Aurobindo: How do you mean? Thoughts and suggestions come to me from every side and I don’t refuse them. I accept them and see what they are like. But if you mean thinking, I never do that. Thinking ceased a long time ago – it has stopped ever since that experience of mine with Lele, the Silence and Nirvana at Baroda. Thoughts, as I said, come to me from all sides and from above and the receptive mind remains quiet or it enlarges itself to receive them. True thoughts always come in this way. You can’t think out such thoughts. If you try to do so, you only make what the Mother calls mental constructions.

Dr. Manilal: Was the Arya with its thousands of pages written in this way?

Sri Aurobindo: No, it was transmitted directly into the pen. It is a great relief to get out of the responsibility.

Dr. Manilal: Oh yes, Sir.

Sri Aurobindo: I don’t mean responsibility in general, but of thinking about everything. Some thoughts are given, some are reflected from above. It is not that I don’t look for knowledge. When I want knowledge, I call for it. The higher faculty sees thoughts as if they were written on a wall.

Dr. Manilal: Vishuddhananda is said to be able to produce all sorts of smells, for which he has been known as Gandhibaba. Do you think it possible to do such things?

Sri Aurobindo: It is difficult to know if the smells are all materialisations or subtle smells projected into the physical or on the senses.

Many people have experiences of subtle realities. Paul Brunton told us he was always aware of some Presence accompanying him but could not identify it. When he saw my photo it did not at all resemble his vision, but when he saw me at Darshan time he at once recognised me as the Presence.

Dr. Manilal: Why didn’t he remain here if he had an opening to you and also admiration for you?

Sri Aurobindo: We did not advise him to remain. The Mother, after a meditation with him, told him about some of his difficulties and he admitted she was right.

At one time I thought that physical Siddhi, spiritual power over matter, was impossible. But in the Alipore Jail I found once after my meditation that my body had taken a position which was physically impossible: it was actually raised some inches above the ground; there was what is known as levitation. Then again, I practised for a time raising my hands and keeping them suspended in the air without any muscular control. Once in that condition I fell asleep. The warder saw me in that posture and reported that I was dead. The authorities came and found me quite alive. I told them the warder was a fool.

There is a French author, Jules Romains, who is a mystic as well as a medical man. He can see with other parts of the body than the eyes. He says the eyes are only a specialised part; other parts can also be trained to see while the eyes remain closed. He even gave a demonstration to scientists; but they refused to admit its validity.