Nirodbaran
Talks with Sri Aurobindo
Volume 1
10 December 1938 – 14 January 1941
14 December 1938
Time about 5.30 p.m.; silent atmosphere, Dr. Manilal meditating, Nirodbaran sitting by his side. Sri Aurobindo cast a glance at Dr. Manilal. After a few minutes Nirodbaran tried to kill a mosquito and made a clapping sound. Sri Aurobindo looked at him. Dr. Manilal opened his eyes. Nirodbaran felt both embarrassed and amused.
Dr. Manilal: You make such a noise to kill a mosquito!
Nirodbaran: I am sorry to have spoiled your meditation.
Dr. Manilal: Meditation can’t be spoiled. We shall meditate when the Mother comes. (Laughter)
The talk turned to Theosophy.
Dr. Manilal: The Theosophists speak of Mahatmas from whom they receive messages.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, Morya and Koothoomi are two of their Mahatmas. The Mahatmas are said to be living somewhere in Bhutan among Rishis who are thousands of years old, I hear.
Dr. Manilal: Not true? You wrote, a long time ago, a poem on Koothoomi in the Standard-Bearer. From it we have thought of a being with great spiritual realisation.
Sri Aurobindo: It was purely a play of the poetic imagination.
Dr. Manilal: What do you think of Madame Blavatsky?
Sri Aurobindo: She was a remarkable woman.
Dr. Manilal: Were you ever a freemason?
Sri Aurobindo: My eldest brother was. I gathered that there was nothing in it. But it certainly had something when it was first started.
Have you heard of Cagliostro? He was a mystic freemason with a great prophetic power. He never charged anyone any money and yet he was affluent. It was said he could make gold. He prophesied about the French Revolution, the taking of the Bastille and the guillotining of the King and Queen. He used to prophesy about race-horses too. This got him into trouble. He was imprisoned and died in prison.
(After a few minutes’ silence) Have you heard of Nostradamus? No? He was a Jew. At that time the Jews had a lot of knowledge. He wrote a book of prophecy in an obscure language and foretold, among other things, the execution of Charles I, the establishment of the British Empire and the lasting of the Empire for 330 years.
Nirodbaran: Then there is a long time before it goes.
Sri Aurobindo: No. It is to be counted from the beginning of Britain’s colonies. That means from James I. In that case it should end now.
Dr. Manilal: Judging from Chamberlain’s utterance lately, it looks as if Britain were not obliged to side with France in case of war.
Sri Aurobindo: The English always keep their policy open so that they may change according as they like or want.
Dr. Manilal: But they can’t join Germany or Italy, can they?
Sri Aurobindo: Why not? They can share with them France’s African colonies.
At this time the Mother came in. Seeing her, we changed our positions from near Sri Aurobindo’s bed.
The Mother: Don’t move, don’t move!
Dr. Manilal: Mother, we have decided to meditate when you come.
The Mother opened her eyes wide and all of us laughed.
Mother: But if I want to hear the talk?
Dr. Manilal: Then, of course, we shall talk.
Sri Aurobindo (to the Mother): I am giving the doctor a few prophecies of Cagliostro and Nostradamus whom he has never heard of.
Then Buddhism came in as a topic.
Nirodbaran: Lokanath Bhikshu, an Italian convert, tried to call me back from here. I found him rather illogical.
Sri Aurobindo: All preachers are illogical. Were you a fervent Buddhist? Is there much Buddhism where you come from?
Nirodbaran: There are about one or two million Buddhists, but there is practically nothing of Buddhism.
The Mother: Is Northern or Southern Buddhism professed?
Nirodbaran: Southern.
The Mother: In China and Japan too no real Buddhism is found – only ceremonies. In Ceylon, they say, there is still some authentic Buddhism.
Nirodbaran: Also in Burma nothing authentic remains, I am told, but the Burmese people show a great respect for their Bhikshus.
Dr. Manilal: Yes, respect for the appearance and not for the reality.
Sri Aurobindo: Lele also used to think that the appearance has some value. Once I met X with him. He asked me, “Why don’t you bow down to him?” I replied that I didn’t believe in the man. He said, “But you must respect the yellow robe.”
As the Mother had gone into meditation all of us tried to meditate with her. At about 7.00 she departed and we gathered again round Sri Aurobindo’s bed.
Sri Aurobindo (addressing Nirodbaran): You seem to have had Ananda in your meditation. Your face is beaming.
Dr. Manilal: Yes, Sir. Nirodbaran nowadays beams with Ananda.
Nirodbaran: I fell into deep sleep, I think. But I had also some visions which seemed to be quite distinctly outside me.
Sri Aurobindo: Then why do you call it sleep? It maybe the psychic being or the inner being watching what was happening. Sometimes one goes into a deep state and remembers nothing of the outer consciousness though many things may be occurring on the surface. What is called dreamless sleep is really a sleep where many dreams are passing on, only one doesn’t know of them. Sometimes one discusses important problems in such a condition. At other times, one gets the ecstasy of union with the Divine. One may also go into other worlds with a part of one’s being and meet all kinds of forms. This is, of course, the first stage and a kind of beginning of Samadhi.
From what you describe, it may be an inner-being experience and not a psychic one. Even then, there is no doubt that your face is beaming with Ananda. It is on seeing it like this that I thought you had gone within.
Nirodbaran: Can one get diagnoses of diseases in such a state?
Sri Aurobindo: Oh yes. Many people are said to have had their problems solved when they had gone within. I remember a peculiar experience of mine. As I was meditating, I saw some writings crossing above my head. Then a blank. Then again those writings with a gap in the middle which meant that things were going on though I was not conscious of them.
(Addressing Dr. Manilal) Now what about your meditation?
Dr. Manilal: Not successful, Sir!
Sri Aurobindo: How? I saw you grim and powerful, wrestling your way towards the Brahman. (Loud laughter)
Dr. Manilal: Plenty of thoughts invaded me. I tried to reject them and make myself empty.
Sri Aurobindo: And the result was emptiness?
Nirodbaran: But that is meditation, surely?
Dr. Manilal: No, no, it isn’t. I couldn’t go within. I didn’t feel the pressure. Was it meditation, Sir?
Sri Aurobindo: That is the beginning, the first stage. The mind must first be quiet for other things to come down. But one must not dictate to the meditation what it should or should not be. One must accept whatever it brings. Do you always have to try to meditate?
Dr. Manilal: Not always. I have told you that sometimes it visits me all on a sudden and then I have to sit down. But was I right in saying what I did just now? I said that I was able to reject thoughts.
Sri Aurobindo (laughing): How do I know? You are the man to know it. I was only making comments on your statements.
Dr. Manilal: You don’t know? We consider you omniscient.
Sri Aurobindo: You don’t expect me, surely, to know how many fishes the fishermen of Pondicherry have caught or how much money they have made out of the catch. People from Bombay used to ask me if the price of cotton would go up, if this or that horse would win a race and if the child they had lost would be found again. What’s the use of knowing all these things? You must have heard Ramakrishna’s story of a Sannyasin’s river-crossing by occult power. Of course, if necessary, one can know all those things in a Swapna Samadhi. Besides, I am not occupied with details of occult working. I have left them to the Mother. She often hears what is said at a distance, meets sadhaks on the subtle planes, talks to them. She saw exactly what was going to happen in the recent European trouble. We know whatever we have to know for our work.
Nirodbaran: What puzzles me is that you have never told me anything when I have asked you about the condition of a patient or my diagnosis of his complaint.
Sri Aurobindo: Why do you expect me to do your work?
Nirodbaran: Oh, that’s different. But you said you have no latent medico in you and hence you couldn’t say anything. I thought you could by your intuition.
Then the talk drifted to the subject of intuition and doctors getting their diagnoses in sleep. Nirodbaran mentioned the Mother’s advice to him to get intuition through silence of the mind. The results were discussed.
Sri Aurobindo (addressing Dr. Manilal): I was telling you we know what we have got to do. But it is not always good to know. For instance, if I know a thing is going to happen, I am bound to it and even if it is not what I want I have to accept it and this prevents my having a greater or another possibility. So I want to keep myself free and deal with various possibilities. Below the Supermind everything is a question of possibilities. Hence I keep myself free to accept or reject as I like. Destiny does not mean that a thing is fixed. It is just a sum of forces which can be changed.
Nirodbaran: Without knowledge of the thing, how will one work? After knowing, can’t one reject?
Sri Aurobindo: Knowledge comes by intuition. One can reject, but the result is not sure, though one’s failure may show the way to a later success.
Dr. Manilal: You have said that you have conquered the death which comes by a natural process but that you have no complete control over accidents.
Sri Aurobindo: Where did I say that?
Nirodbaran: If I remember rightly, you wrote to me that diseases can’t end your life but still you can’t wholly control accidents.
Sri Aurobindo: Oh! Diseases usually run a long course, so one has time to act on them. But if there are diseases of a sudden or severe nature that can end one’s life immediately, then conquest is not possible. And about accidents, the body has its own consciousness and is always alert. But if the mind is occupied with other things, an accident can take one unaware. As regards violence – for example, a riot – I would have to concentrate for four or five days in order to protect myself.
The hostile forces have tried many times to prevent things like the Darshan, but I have succeeded in warding off all their attacks. At the time the accident to my leg happened, I was more occupied with guarding the Mother and I forgot about myself. I didn’t think the hostiles would attack me. That was my mistake. As for the Ashram, I have been extremely successful, but while I have tried to work on the world the results have been varied. In Spain, in Madrid, I was splendidly successful. General Miaja was an admirable instrument to work on. Basque was an utter failure. Negus was a good instrument but the people around him, though good warriors, were too ill-organised and ill-equipped. The work in Egypt was not a success. In Ireland and Turkey the success was tremendous. In Ireland I have done exactly what I wanted to do in Bengal. The Turks are a silent race.
Nirodbaran: Did you stop war the last time there was a chance of it?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes – for many reasons war was not favourable at that time.
Nirodbaran: But you stopped it at the cost of the humiliation of some great Powers.
Sri Aurobindo: I didn’t care for that.
Nirodbaran: What do you think of the Sino-Japanese War?
Sri Aurobindo: I don’t think much of either party. They are six of one and half-dozen of the other. Both too materialistic. But if I were to choose, I would side with Japan, for Japan at one time had an ideal. The power of the Japanese for self-sacrifice, patriotism, self-abnegation and silence was remarkable. They would never lose their temper in front of anybody, though perhaps they might stab afterwards. They could work so silently and secretly that no one knew anything before the Russo-Japanese War broke out. All of a sudden it broke out. The Japanese are Kshatriyas, and their aesthetic sense is of course well known. But European influence has spoiled all that, and see now how brutal they have become – a thoroughly un-Japanese thing. Formerly they could look upon their opponents with sympathy. Look at Japanese sentries boxing European officers. Not that the latter don’t deserve it. Look also at the Japanese commander challenging Chiang-Kai-Shek to come out into the open field. This sort of bragging is not at all truly Japanese.
Nirodbaran: But, without brutalities like the killing of innocent citizens, won’t it be difficult for them to win the war?
Sri Aurobindo: God knows! The Japanese are such fine warriors, such a patriotic and self-sacrificing nation, that one would believe the contrary. But they are doing these things probably because of two supposed reasons: first, financial shortage, which is not a very convincing reason since they have an immense power of sacrifice; second, the population of China.
Nirodbaran: And foreign help to China – for example, from the Soviet Union?
Sri Aurobindo: That’s a possibility, but the internal condition of the Soviet Union is such that it can’t think of giving external help to others.
Nirodbaran: What about India’s independence? Is it developing along your lines?
Sri Aurobindo: Surely not. India is now going towards European Socialism, which is dangerous for her, whereas we were trying to evolve the genius of the race along Indian lines and all working for independence. Take the Bengal Movement. The whole country was awakened within a short time. People who were cowards and trembled at the sight of a revolver were in a short period so much changed that the police officials used to say, “That insolent Barisal look!” It was the soul of the race that awoke, throwing up very fine personalities. The leaders of the Movement were either Yogis or disciples of Yogis – men like Monoranjan Guha Thakurtha, the disciple of Bejoy Goswami.
Nirodbaran: Was he a Nationalist?
Sri Aurobindo: Good Lord! He was my fellow-worker and also took part in the Secret Society. Then there were others, like Brahmabandhav Upadhyaya. The influence of Ramakrishna and Vivekananda worked from behind. The Movement and the Secret Society became so formidable that in any other country with a political past they would have led to something like the French Revolution. The sympathy of the whole nation was on our side. Even shopkeepers were reading Jugantar. I’ll tell you an instance. While a young man was fleeing after killing a police officer in Shyam Bazar, he forgot to throw away his revolver. It remained in his hand. One shopkeeper cried out, “Hide your revolver, hide your revolver!” And, of course, you have heard of Jatin Mukherji?
Dr. Manilal: Yes, Sir.
Sri Aurobindo: A wonderful man. He was a man who would belong to the front rank of humanity anywhere. Such beauty and strength together I haven’t seen, and his stature was like a warrior’s. Then there was Pulin Das.
Nirodbaran: Pulin Das, I hear, turned out to be a spy.
Sri Aurobindo: A spy? I don’t believe it. He may have become a Moderate but not a spy. Such were the leaders at that time, and look at Bengal now!
Nirodbaran: What about Gandhi’s Movement?
Sri Aurobindo: Gandhi has taken India a great step forward towards freedom, but his Movement has touched only the upper middle classes while ours comprised even the lower middle classes.
Nirodbaran: Has it diminished the spirit of revolution?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes.
Nirodbaran: Was it Anderson, the Governor of Bengal, who killed the revolutionary movement?
Sri Aurobindo: Certainly not. It was the Force behind that receded and people became corrupted. No such leaders as before were forthcoming.
Nirodbaran: Is the last terrorist movement a part of the one of 1905?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, it is the remnant of that.
Nirodbaran: During the war of 1914-1918 the revolutionaries were perhaps deceived by British promises.
Sri Aurobindo: Oh no, the revolutionaries are not people to be deceived by promises.
Nirodbaran: Gandhi seems to have given much courage and strength to the people. In Bengal we were so afraid of the police. I think it was Gandhi who imparted strength there.
Sri Aurobindo: Did Bengal need it?
Nirodbaran: What do you think of C.R. Das?
Sri Aurobindo: He was the last of the old group. He came here and wanted to be a disciple. I said he wouldn’t be able to go through in Yoga as long as he was in the political movement. Besides, his health was shattered. I restored it to a certain extent but there was a relapse when he went back. You know he became Anukul Thakur’s disciple.