Nirodbaran

Talks with Sri Aurobindo

Volume 1

10 December 1938 – 14 January 1941

18 December 1938

8.30 p.m. Nirodbaran read an article in Asia, an American paper, to Sri Aurobindo on himself and his Yoga. It was written by Swami Nikhilananda.

Nirodbaran: It is surprising that a Ramakrishna Mission Yogi should write on you.

Sri Aurobindo: It is Nishtha (Miss Margaret Wilson) who arranged for its publication. He was a friend of hers before she came here. It is peculiar how they give an American turn to everything.

Nirodbaran: The Americans seem to be more open than the Europeans. Why?

Sri Aurobindo: They are a new nation and have no past tradition to bind them. France and Czechoslovakia are also open. Many from there are writing that they want to do Yoga.

Nirodbaran: Was Nishtha in communication with you for some time?

Sri Aurobindo: Oh yes. She was in touch with us for three or four years. She has very clear ideas about Yoga and she was practising it there.

At this point Dr. Manilal arrived. He heard the reference to Woodrow Wilson’s daughter.

Dr. Manilal: She must be disappointed because there was no Darshan in November.

Sri Aurobindo: No. She has taken it with the right Yogic attitude – unlike many.

Dr. Manilal: How is it there are no Maharashtrian sadhaks here, in spite of your contact with Tilak and your long stay in Baroda?

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, it is strange. The cause may be that they are more vital in their nature.

The talk then changed to the Supermind.

Dr. Manilal: I hope we shall live to see the glorious day of the Supermind. When will it descend, Sir?

Sri Aurobindo (after a little silence): How can it descend? The nearer it comes, the greater becomes the resistance to it.

Dr. Manilal: On the contrary, the Law of Gravitation should pull it down.

Sri Aurobindo: That Law does not apply to it, because of its tendency to levitation! And it is coming down against tremendous resistance.

Dr. Manilal: Have you realised the Supermind?

Sri Aurobindo: You know, I was talking to Nirodbaran about the tail of the Supermind. I know what the Supermind is. And the physical being has flashes and glimpses of it. I have been trying to supramentalise the descended Overmind. Not that the Supermind is not acting. It is doing so – through the Overmind; and the Intuition and the other intermediate powers have come down. The Supermind is above the Overmind. (Sri Aurobindo put one hand over the other.) So one may mistake the latter for the former. I remember the day when people here claimed to have got the Supermind. I myself had made mistakes about it. I didn’t know then about the planes. It was Vivekananda who, when he used to come to me during meditation in Alipore Jail, showed me the intuitive plane. For a month or so he gave instructions about intuition. Then afterwards I began to see the still higher planes. I am not satisfied with only a part of the Supermind in the physical consciousness. I want to bring down the whole mass of it, pure, and that is an extremely difficult business.

Dr. Manilal: We hear that there will be a selected number of people who will first receive the Supermind.

Sri Aurobindo (making a peculiar expression with his eyes): Selected by whom?

Dr. Manilal: By the Supermind, Sir.

Sri Aurobindo (laughing): Oh, then that’s for the Supermind to decide. Whatever is the truth will be done by it, for it is the Truth-Consciousness – and if things are established by it in the consciousness, your complaint about the disappearance of calm etc. will itself disappear, for they will be established by the Supermind.

Nirodbaran: Won’t the descent of the Supermind make things easier for us?

Sri Aurobindo: It will do so for those who receive the Supermind, who are open to it. But its descent itself needs certain conditions. For example, if there were thirty or forty people ready, it would descend.

Nirodbaran: We hear you said that in 1934 the Supermind was ready to descend but not a single sadhak was found prepared, so it withdrew. And yet didn’t you tell me once that the descent of the Supermind doesn’t depend on the readiness of the sadhaks?

Sri Aurobindo: If none is ready to receive it, how will it manifest? But instead of thinking of Supermind, one should first open oneself to intuition.

At this moment the Mother came and asked what we were talking about.

Sri Aurobindo: About intuition and other things.

The Mother fell into meditation. We all joined in. At about 7 p.m. she left us.

Sri Aurobindo: Does anyone know about S? I am curious to know how, as he puts it, his blood comes out drop by drop from his body. He seems to have an Elizabethan turn of expression!

Then, à propos of S and N, the topic of fear of death came up. They were known to cover up their bodies for fear of catching cold.

Sri Aurobindo: At Cambridge we were once discussing physical development. Then one fellow, in order to show how splendid his health was, began to take off his shirt and underwear, one after another. We found that there were ten or twelve pieces of clothing on his body!

Nirodbaran: We must develop our consciousness in order to conquer death, mustn’t we? People think that as soon as they have entered the Ashram they have become immortal!

Sri Aurobindo: People think so because for a long time no death took place in the Ashram. Those who had died were either visitors or sadhaks who had gone away from here. At the beginning, people had a very strong faith, but as the numbers increased, the faith began to diminish. However, why should one fear death? The soul is immortal and passes from one life and body to another. Besides, fear has no place in Yoga.

Nirodbaran: We fear because of our attachments.

Sri Aurobindo: One must have no attachments in Yoga.

Dr. Manilal: How is fear to be conquered?

Sri Aurobindo: By mental strength, will and spiritual power. In my own case, whenever there was any fear, I used to do the very thing I was afraid of, even if it brought the risk of a sudden death. Barin also had a lot of fear while he was carrying on terrorist activities. But he too would compel himself to go on. When the death sentence was passed on him, he took it very cheerfully. Henry IV of France had great physical fear, but by his will-power he would force himself to rush into the thick of the battle and he became known as a great warrior. Napoleon and Caesar had no fear. Once when Caesar was fighting the forces of Pompey in Albania, his army was faring badly. He was at that time in Italy. He jumped into the sea, took a fisherman’s boat and asked him to carry him to Albania. On the way a storm arose and the fisherman was mortally afraid. Then Caesar said, “Why do you fear? You are carrying the fortunes of Caesar.”

I remember a sadhak saying, under an attack of hiccoughing, “I shall die if it goes on.” I told him, “What does it matter if you die?” At once the hiccoughs stopped. Very often these fears and suggestions bring in the adverse forces which then catch hold of the person. By my blunt statement the sadhak realised his folly and perhaps didn’t allow any more suggestions.

Dr. Manilal: Is Barin still doing Yoga?

Sri Aurobindo: I don’t know. He used to do some sort of Yoga even before I began. He took up my Yoga only after coming to Pondicherry. In the Andamans also he was practising it. You know he was Lele’s disciple. Once he took Lele to Calcutta to be among the young people of the Secret Society. Lele didn’t know that they were revolutionaries. One day Barin took him into a garden where they were practising shooting. As soon as Lele saw it he understood the nature of the movement and asked Barin to give it up. Lele said that if Barin did not listen to him Barin would fall into a ditch – and he did.

Nirodbaran: Barin, I heard, had a lot of experiences.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, but mostly they were rather mental experiences. He gathered a lot of information from them. I heard that when he had begun Yoga he had an experience of Kamananda. Lele was surprised to hear about it, for he said that this experience comes usually at the end. It is a descent, like any other experience, but unless one’s sex centre is sufficiently controlled it may have bad results due to the excitement produced.

Nirodbaran: Barin had great energy and capacity.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, he had brilliance, but he was always narrow and limited. He wouldn’t widen himself. (Sri Aurobindo showed the widening by a movement of his hands above his head.) That’s why his things won’t last. For instance, he was a brilliant writer and he also composed devotional poetry, but, because of his limitedness, nothing of that will endure. He was an amusing conversationalist, he had some musical ability, he was good at revolutionary activity. He did well in all these matters, but nothing more. He was also a painter, but it did not come to much in spite of his exhibitions.

Nirodbaran: In his paper Dawn he began to write a biography of you.

Sri Aurobindo: I don’t know about it. Did he publish a paper? I would be interested to see what he has written about me.

Dr. Manilal: His paper stopped after a short time.

Nirodbaran: It was in this paper that he said you were the leader of the revolutionary movement. I once asked you whether it was true.

Sri Aurobindo: And what did I say?

Nirodbaran: You wrote back, showing great surprise, that I didn’t know what everyone knew.

Sri Aurobindo: In fact it is not true. Barin does not give the correct account of things. I was neither the founder nor the leader. It was P. Mitra and Miss Ghosal who started it on the inspiration of Baron Okakura. They had already started it before I went to Bengal and when I was there I came to hear of it. I simply kept myself informed of their work. My idea was for an open armed revolution in the whole of India. What they did at that time was very childish – things like beating magistrates and so on. Later it turned into terrorism and dacoities, which were not at all my idea or intention. Bengalis are too emotional, want quick results, can’t prepare through a long course of years. We wanted to give battle after awakening the spirit of the race through guerilla warfare, as in the Irish Sinn Fein. But at the present stage of military conditions such things are impossible and bound to fail.

Nirodbaran: Why did you not check the terrorist movement?

Sri Aurobindo: It is not wise to check things when they have taken a strong shape, for something good may come out of them.

Dr. Manilal: Is it true that you did not appear for the riding test in your I.C.S.?

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, but they gave me another chance, and again I didn’t appear. Then they rejected me.

Dr. Manilal: Why did you appear at all for the I.C.S.? Was it on account of some intuition that you didn’t come for the riding test?

Sri Aurobindo: Not at all. I knew nothing of Yoga at that time. I appeared for the I.C.S. because my father wanted it and I was too young to understand. Later I found out what sort of work it was and I had no interest in the administrative life. My interest was in poetry and literature and the study of languages and patriotic action.

Nirodbaran: We have heard that you and C.R. Das used to make plans, while in England, for a revolution in India.

Sri Aurobindo: Not only C.R. Das but many others. Deshpande was one. When I went to Baroda from England I found out what the Congress was like at that time and I formed a strong contempt for it. Then I came into touch with Deshpande, Tilak, Madhavrao and others. Deshpande requested me to write something in the Indu Prakash. There I severely criticised the Congress for its moderate policy. The articles were so fiery that M.G. Ranade, the great Maratha leader, asked the proprietor of the paper not to allow such seditious things to appear in his columns; otherwise he might be arrested and imprisoned. Deshpande approached me with this news and requested me to write something less violent. I then began to write about the philosophy of politics, leaving aside the practical part of politics. But I soon got disgusted with it. Later when I heard that Bipin Pal had started a paper, the Bande Mataram, I thought of the chance to work through it.

Nirodbaran: We hear that once the Maharaja of Baroda asked you to write a memorandum to the Resident about some financial trouble. But you refused to do it unless the Maharaja himself would hand it over to the Resident: the Dewan was a timid man and suppressed the memoranda written by you.

Sri Aurobindo: That’s a legend. Of course, I wrote many memoranda for the Maharaja but along the lines he gave me. As I said, I was not interested in administrative work and soon I got the Maharaja to transfer me to the College.

Along with Tilak, Madhavrao, Deshpande and Joshi, who became a Moderate later, I was planning to work on more extremist lines than the Congress. We brought Jatin Banerji from Bengal and got him admitted into the Baroda army. Our idea was to drive out the Moderates from the Congress and capture it.

As soon as I heard that a National College had been started in Bengal I found my opportunity and threw up the Baroda job and went to Calcutta as Principal. There I came into contact with Bipin Pal, who was editing the Bande Mataram. But its financial condition was precarious. When Pal was going on a tour he asked me to take up the paper. I asked Subodh Mullick and others to finance it. Then some people wanted to oust Pal and, when I was lying ill, they did it. They connected my name also with it. I called the sub-editor and gave him a severe thrashing – metaphorically, of course. Pal was a great orator and at that time his speeches were highly inspired, a sort of descent from above. Later on, his oratorical powers diminished. I remember he never used the word “independence” but always said “autonomy without British control”! When after the Barisal Conference we brought the peasants into the Movement, forty or fifty thousand of them used to gather to hear Pal. Suren Banerji cannot be compared to Pal. He has never done anything like what Pal did. But Pal was more an orator than a leader. He had not the practical qualities of a leader.

Then Shyam Sundar and some other people came in to help the Bande Mataram. Soon it drew the attention of a large number of people and became an all-India paper. The Punjab and Maharashtra joined the Movement.

One day I called the Bengal leaders and said, “It is no use simply going on like this. We must capture the Congress and throw out the Moderate leaders from it.” Then I proposed that we should follow Tilak as the all-India leader. They at once jumped at the idea. Tilak, who was not well known in the northern parts of India, accepted the leadership. He was a really great man and a rare disinterested one.

Dr. Manilal: What do you think of his book on the Gita? Was it inspired?

Sri Aurobindo: I must say I haven’t read it.

Dr. Manilal: But you have reviewed it.

Sri Aurobindo: Then I must have reviewed it without reading it. (Loud laughter) Of course, I might have glanced through it, and I don’t think it is inspired. It must be more a mental interpretation. Tilak had a brilliant mind.

Dr. Manilal: When someone asked Tilak what he would do when India got Swaraj, he replied that he would again be a professor of mathematics.

Nirodbaran: We heard about one paper, Sandhya.

Sri Aurobindo: At that time three extremist papers were running in Bengal, the Jugantar, Sandhya and Bande Mataram. Brahmabandhav Upadhyaya, editor of the Sandhya, was another great man. He used to write so cleverly that the Government couldn’t charge anything against him. As for the Bande Mataram, its financial condition was very bad and yet we carried on for two years.

Nirodbaran: Didn’t the Government try to arrest you and the others?

Sri Aurobindo: It couldn’t; there was no law for doing it, and the press had more liberty than afterwards. Besides, there was nothing in the various papers that could be directly charged against us. The Statesman used to complain that the Bande Mataram was reeking with sedition and yet was so cleverly written that one couldn’t arrest the editor. Moreover, the names of the editors were never published. So they could arrest only the printers. But as soon as one was arrested, another came to take his place.

Later on, Upen Banerji, the sub-editor, published some correspondence for which I was arrested on a sedition charge. But as nothing could be proved I was acquitted. When I was arrested a second time and detained in Alipore Jail, the Bande Mataram was up against disastrous financial difficulties. Hence the editors wrote something very strong and the paper got suppressed.

I started the Karmayogin some time after my second acquittal. Once I heard from Sister Nivedita that the Government wanted to prosecute and deport me. I wrote an article, “An Open Letter to My Countrymen”. It prevented the prosecution. Soon after, I went away to Chandernagore. There some friends were thinking of sending me to France. I was wondering what to do next. Then I heard the Adesh, “Go to Pondicherry.”

Dr. Manilal: Why to Pondicherry?

Sri Aurobindo: I could not question. It was Sri Krishna’s Adesh. I had to obey. Later I found it was for the Ashram, for the Yogic work.

I had to apply for a passport under a false name. The District Commissioner required a medical certificate by an English doctor. After a great deal of trouble I found one and went to his house. He told me that I spoke English remarkably well. I replied that I had been to England.

Nirodbaran: How could you agree to take a false name for the certificate?

Sri Aurobindo: If I had given my real name I would have been arrested at once. With due respect to Gandhi’s truth, I could not be so very precise here. You can’t be a revolutionary otherwise.

Accompanied by Bejoy, Moni and my brother-in-law, I arrived in Pondicherry but we had to assume false names for some time.