Nirodbaran

Talks with Sri Aurobindo

Volume 1

10 December 1938 – 14 January 1941

12 January 1939

Nirodbaran narrated to Sri Aurobindo an incident that had taken place in Calcutta. The Mother was present during the narration. The incident concerned a girl of about ten or twelve. She belonged to a very well-known family and had visited the Ashram with her parents more than once. Now there was a tea-party in their sumptuous house. Many high-ranking people had been invited. The topic of the Ashram came up. Comments and criticisms started flying freely. Even the Mother and Sri Aurobindo were not spared. The child listened quietly. But when somebody seemed to overstep the limit of decency, she could stand it no longer. In a firm tone she said, “Look here, if you speak one more word about my Gurus, I’ll give you such a slap that you’ll tumble down.” Everybody was stunned. The child’s mamma left the room in shame and anger at the insult to her guests. Her uncle started looking at the ceiling in embarrassment, and to change the subject he started calling to the servants, “Hari, Ram, what a lot of dust is here!” Nirodbaran’s story was enjoyed by all immensely. The Mother and Sri Aurobindo looked happy. Then the Mother left.

Sri Aurobindo: What this girl does is remarkable for her age. Along with strength of character she has developed an extraordinary intelligence. When she used to write to us, she would make reflections about people and the world in general, which were beyond even a woman of fifty.

Nirodbaran: I’ll tell you of some rare traits in her, her powers of judgment as well as of detachment. She had a dancing master. Her parents wanted to dismiss him because he was said to have a bad character. She wouldn’t agree at all. Her argument was that character had nothing to do with teaching. But for all her opposition the parents did send the fellow away. And when he left she acted quite contrary to expectation. Although she had fought so much for him, she seemed not the least put out by his dismissal. Then there is the incident of the death of her pet dog. When this animal, which she had loved intensely, died she remained perfectly calm. This set her mamma thinking that she didn’t love the dog and also that she might not be loving her even and would one day leave her for the Ashram.

Sri Aurobindo: Her parents have found out it would be difficult to bend her to their will. She on her side has found out that they keep lying to her.

Nirodbaran: People say she is quite happy where she is at present.

Sri Aurobindo: How do they make that out? She wrote to us she was very unhappy outside.

The talk then turned on the purge-trials in Russia by Stalin.

Sri Aurobindo: What Stalin wants is power – nothing else.

Nirodbaran: Is there nothing in his allegations against Trotsky?

Sri Aurobindo: All that is not credible. Most probably Trotsky’s followers wanted to get rid of Stalin by killing him but set about it in a clumsy way and so were killed by Stalin. Stalin has been able to get rid of almost everybody who had worked with Lenin. Litvinoff has managed to escape. I don’t know what has happened to his wife. She was very anti-Stalin and could not be checked. One has heard of General Blucher and his trial but nothing afterwards. Stalin’s parliament meets and talks and disperses. Whatever he and his party say is obeyed.

Purani: The confessions of the generals and others were so dramatic.

Sri Aurobindo: They made them to save their relatives probably.

Nirodbaran: Was Trotsky a better man than Stalin?

Sri Aurobindo: He was an idealist, at any rate.

Then there was talk about Japan. Purani referred to the resignation of all the Japanese Ministers and related some general’s declaration about a hundred years’ war.

Sri Aurobindo: Oh, yes – to make the world civilised and to drive all the Europeans out of Asia! But it is very unusual for the Japanese to talk as this general has done. They never speak of anything beforehand. They get everything ready and act.

Satyendra: What about India’s freedom? It seems it will take very long for her to be free from European rule.

Sri Aurobindo: Not necessarily. It seems to me she will not have to fight to get her freedom. She will get it without any fight.

Nirodbaran: How’s that?

Sri Aurobindo: That is the prophecy among the Sannyasis.

Nirodbaran: I remember Lele also spoke like that.

Sri Aurobindo: If India has to fight, she has no chance. But if some new power – Italy, for instance – were able to crash England effectively, as is very unlikely, India would have a chance. For then England wouldn’t be able to hold India any more.

Nirodbaran: But that power itself or else some other like Japan can come and capture her again.

Sri Aurobindo: It can’t be so easy. These powers are far away from India. For them it would be a great venture. Besides, one can’t conquer a country only with a navy. The navy has to be supported by an army. If India has an army of her own, it will be difficult for any country to conquer her.

But it wouldn’t be safe at present to depend on outside help. When the Mother once asked a Japanese friend of hers whether Japan’s navy would help India in case of war, he replied, “Don’t trust Japan. If she once gets in, it will be hard to get her out.”

Nirodbaran: India has no navy.

Sri Aurobindo: It can be built up after independence, though it may take time.

Purani: Even the Congress Ministers are not keeping to the policy of non-violence. They are planning and enforcing military training in the United Provinces, the Central Provinces, Bombay and Madras.

Purani: Sir Sikandar Hussain has tried to make a division of India into martial races, like those of the Punjab, and non-martial races.

Sri Aurobindo: That division was made by the British Government purposely to conquer and keep India down. They got the Pathans, Gurkhas and Punjabis to enter the army and make up the bulk of it. But every part of India had its empire in the past. All India can have military training and equipment in a short time.

Nirodbaran: But what about the Muslims?

Sri Aurobindo: The Muslims also don’t want foreign rule. There is no doubt that the majority of prominent Muslims want independence.

Nirodbaran: The majority?

Sri Aurobindo: Yes. But they want Mohammedan independence. Even Jinnah wants independence. He has said it many times. I don’t think the Muslims would prefer foreign domination to independence.

If India had the proper equipment, it would be quite a job for other nations to conquer her. Look at Spain. The Spanish Government has no proper equipment and yet the civil war there is dragging on for years. It was different with the Abyssinians when the Italians attacked them. They were unorganised as well as poor in equipment.

Nirodbaran: If Franco gets Spain, it will be bad for England.

Sri Aurobindo: But worse for France. She could easily be cut off from her African colonies and surrounded on all sides. For England also it will be bad, as the Spanish may block the present passage to the East and she may have to go round the other way.

By this spring the intention of the Axis powers will be known. In the meantime Italy is trying to manoeuvre Chamberlain to her side.

Nirodbaran: France depends too much on England.

Sri Aurobindo: She has to. She can’t fight single-handedly with Germany and Italy. Everybody knows that in case war breaks out Germany will side with Italy.

Nirodbaran: France can have Russia’s help.

Sri Aurobindo: Not likely. First, she does not trust Russia. Secondly, Russia is divided from France by almost the whole of Europe. Thirdly, the Russian navy is not strong.

Nirodbaran: Germany is taking revenge for the unjust peace-terms after the last war.

Sri Aurobindo: It’s not exactly that. It was England who thrust Germany into power. She saw that France was getting powerful in Europe after the war. As is her usual self-interested policy, she raised Germany in order to create a balance of power. She didn’t expect that Hitler would aim his gun at her. At one time France and England came almost to a point of rivalry. France tried to create a friendships with Italy by placating her and England made Mussolini an enemy by applying sanctions against Italy in Abyssinia. But she could not stop Italy from conquering Abyssinia.

I have never seen such bankruptcy of English diplomacy before. Since the war she has been following a most imbecile and weak policy.

Nirodbaran: The papers say that Italy raised this Tunis-Corsica cry to divert the attention of England and France from Spain.

Sri Aurobindo: What attention? What have they been doing for Spain? Nothing! Even Blum who is a socialist applied this policy of non-intervention in Spain during his premiership.

Of course it is quite foolish for Italy to ask for Tunis or Corsica. No French politician can give them away against the wish of the people. The Italians have no chance here. One may as well ask for Wales and the Isle of Wight from England. Italy by this cry has, on the contrary, given a fright to the nationalists in Tunis and united them in favour of France.

Nirodbaran: America is also preparing enormously.

Satyendra: She is not obliged to take part in European politics.

Sri Aurobindo: Perhaps Roosevelt has got secret information about hostile designs. It is not a question of meddling in European politics but of guarding against being eaten up. Those who remain behind will be eaten up at last. Some people in America understand this. All are not like Chamberlain.

Nirodbaran: The English fleet seems to be the strongest.

Sri Aurobindo: I can’t say, but it is the most experienced. The Italian fleet is very well equipped, but it is difficult to predict how it will fare in actual war. It has not been tried and tested.

Nirodbaran: In a war, the future is likely to be decided in the air rather than on the sea.

Sri Aurobindo: No; the air can’t decide a war. Aeroplanes can only be an aid, but the fate of a war will be decided on the sea. If the navy can be smashed, then you can blockade a nation and starve it out or throw it on its own limited resources while you can obtain resources everywhere. It is sea-power on which will depend the mastery over other nations. It is because of sea-power that England has been the ruler of the world for three centuries.

France at one time had the lead in airpower, but she has lagged behind now because she foolishly stopped building aeroplanes.