Nirodbaran

Talks with Sri Aurobindo

Volume 1

10 December 1938 – 14 January 1941

16 January 1939

Nirodbaran: In the Hindustan Standard there is a remarkable story about some Somesh Bose. His wife, dead for twenty years, has been brought back bodily to him, alive again, and is doing sadhana with him. The man who performed the miracle is a Yogi named Bhola Giri. This Yogi also comes every evening to bless the pair. The paper asks: “What will Western materialists say to this?”

Sri Aurobindo: They will say it is all humbug.

Satyendra: What does Yoga have to say?

Sri Aurobindo: There are many possibilities.

Nirodbaran: But is it at all possible to create like this in new flesh and blood?

Sri Aurobindo: What is meant by flesh and blood? Does Somesh Bose’s wife live all the time with him or does she come only for a few hours and then go away? If the latter, it looks like a temporary materialisation, and that is quite possible. Bhola Giri obviously knows how to do it and has done it for his disciple. As to permanent materialisation, theoretically it is not impossible, but I haven’t heard of any case. Well, if stones can be materialised, as in the famous incident of our Guest House, I don’t see why human beings cannot.

When materialisation takes place, it is most often immediately before death or after. The man in question visits some friend or relative, and if the dying condition or the death is not known to them or the man is not known to be living far away, people mistake his appearance for actual physical presence. There are many such well-attested cases.

My brother Manmohan used to say he had heard from Stephen Phillips that the latter’s mother visited him when she was on her death-bed at a distant place. But my brother was a poet, you must remember – very imaginative. And, moreover, he was a friend of Oscar Wilde. (Laughter)

People say that one telepathises a mental idea and this makes the person appear. It can’t be a mere projection of form by the mind only. There is also the vital-physical part that materialises.

Purani: Paul Brunton writes that when he was in Egypt he met near a hill an ancient Egyptian who had died thousands of years ago and had been mummified. Brunton talked with him.

Sri Aurobindo: What happened afterwards to the Egyptian?

Purani: I believe he went back to the hill.

Sri Aurobindo: Then one can’t say what exactly happened. The Egyptians held that at the time of death the Ka or vital being goes out of the body and after many years can return to it if it is preserved. That is the tradition behind mummification. Perhaps Brunton materialised the tradition? (Laughter)

Purani: Brunton cites the instance of a dead sparrow being revived by an Egyptian.

Nirodbaran: He says that of Vishuddhananda also. The sparrow was killed in his presence and it was revived. Is that possible?

Sri Aurobindo: Quite possible. Can’t you revive a drowned man up to a certain time by physical devices? So, if one knows how, one can restore life in other cases too. One reintroduces the power and sets the organs to action. There are two ways: the first is to bring back the same spirit which is still not far away, and the second is to bring another spirit which wants to enter earth-life.

At this point the Mother came in with a telegram requesting Sri Aurobindo to send “ashes” for the marriage of somebody’s daughter. The Mother and Sri Aurobindo could not make out what was meant.

Purani: It may be the Indian word “ashis”, meaning “blessing”.

Sri Aurobindo: Oh, I see. I was wondering how I was supposed to carry ashes about with me – perhaps on my head. Of course I can give them some from Champaklal’s mosquito coils. If I had not given up smoking, I could have given some cigar ash.

Telegraphic misrepresentations are common. There is Chand’s recent wire.

Nirodbaran: Yes, the telegram read “Nirodasram” instead of “Nirodbaran”.

Champaklal: When is Chand coming here?

Nirodbaran: Soon after “arranging his affairs”.

Sri Aurobindo: Is he still “arranging”?

Champaklal: Has he much property?

Nirodbaran: He has lost everything.

Sri Aurobindo: And yet he is “arranging” it? He is a phenomenon.

Now the Mother left for the general meditation.

Sri Aurobindo: Nirodbaran, do you know the name of the man who apologised to us for having written a book against us?

Nirodbaran: Apologised? Who’s that?

Sri Aurobindo: Some relative of X, I think.

Nirodbaran: Oh, yes, I remember. The father. He criticised the Ashram in that book.

Sri Aurobindo: Merely criticised? Didn’t he attack my character and say that I was taking money from people? That charge, at any rate, won’t do with people, for they know I gave up everything for the country and I couldn’t have fallen so low now. The writer seems to have gathered all sorts of false information.

This sort of public attack doesn’t have any effect, for nobody knows the writer. But if someone well-known, say, Radhakrishnan, attacked my philosophy, it may attract some attention. Talking back may be effective for a time, but the best thing is to leave the attackers alone. They soon get forgotten. Anilbaran has criticised the book we are speaking of.

Nirodbaran: Have you read the book?

Sri Aurobindo: I glanced through it. The author had sent a typed copy. I don’t think more than half a dozen copies of the book could have been sold. He seems to have lost all his money.

Purani: Some Gujaratis are also attacking the Ashram.

Sri Aurobindo: But why? What is their grievance?

Purani: They say we are not doing anything for the country or for humanity.

Sri Aurobindo: Since when has the Ashram been expected to do such things?

Nirodbaran: The Ramakrishna Mission and Gandhi’s Ashram are doing social or political work.

Sri Aurobindo: Gandhi’s Ashram is not an Ashram for spirituality. It is a group of people gathered to be trained in some work or other. But are we attacked because we are not doing anything for the country and humanity or because I who did national work once have left it now?

Purani: Perhaps more because of the latter reason.

Nirodbaran: Subhas Bose also attacked the Ashram on the same plea. He said to Dilip that some of the best people were going away to the Ashram …

Sri Aurobindo: Did he include Dilip among the best people?

Nirodbaran: I don’t remember whether he said “best people” or just “good people”. But he was much grieved at losing them.

Sri Aurobindo: But Dilip was not doing political work. He was doing music.

Nirodbaran: Sub has said he could go on with music for a certain time, but when the hour strikes he must be prepared to give up everything.

Sri Aurobindo: I see – and one can’t give up everything for God, I suppose?

Purani: He must have meant “give up everything and go to jail”.

Sri Aurobindo (shaking his head and looking at the ceiling): Jail? I can’t picture Dilip in jail. (Laughter)

Purani: The two don’t go well together.

Satyendra: Perhaps he would have written some novels about jail afterwards.

Sri Aurobindo: Many things don’t go well together and yet they do happen. One could hardly think of Oscar Wilde in jail and yet he went there. The only thing such people do is to write immortal books in jail. There is Wilde’s De Profundis, for instance. When the French heard of Wilde’s imprisonment, they said about the English people: “Comme ils sont bêtes!” (“How stupid they are!”)

At the time of the Gandhi movement, someone asked Abanindranath Tagore to give up painting and take to politics. He answered, “I am serving the country through my art. Painting is at least something I know well, but I would be a very bad politician.”

Now Purani brought in the topic of new buildings going up at Baroda near the railway station, etc.

Sri Aurobindo: The thought of Baroda (pause for a time) brings to my mind my first connection with the Gaekwar. It is strange how things arrange themselves at times. When I failed in the I.C.S. riding test and was looking for a job, the Gaekwar happened to be in London. I don’t remember whether he called us or we met him. We consulted an authority about the pay we should propose. We had no idea about these things. He said we could propose Rs. 200, but should accept even 130, for that was quite a good sum. He was calculating according to the pound which was equivalent to Rs. 13; so he took ten pounds as a quite good sum. I left the negotiations to my eldest brother and James Cotton. The Gaekwar went about telling people that he had got a Civil Service man for Rs. 200. (Laughter) But Cotton ought to have known better.

Nirodbaran: How much were your monthly expenses?

Sri Aurobindo: Five pounds. It was quite sufficient at that time. What is the expense now?

Nirodbaran: Ten pounds is the bare minimum in Edinburgh.

Sri Aurobindo: Our landlady was an angel. She was long-suffering and never asked for money. For months and months we didn’t pay. I wonder how she managed. It was from the I.C.S. stipend that I paid her afterwards. She came from Somerset and settled in London as a landlady.

My failure in the I.C.S. riding test was a disappointment to my father, for he had arranged everything for me through Sir Henry Cotton. He had arranged to get me posted at Arrah which was regarded as a very fine place and near Sir Henry. He had requested him to look after me.

I wonder what would have happened if I had joined the Civil Service. I think they would have chucked me out for laziness and arrears of work.

Here the topic changed to Gandhism.

Sri Aurobindo: Gandhi’s demilitarisation doesn’t seem to meet with much success.

Purani: Exactly. Nana Sahib also spoke against non-violence the other day while presiding over a conference of young men at Baroda. Do you know him?

Sri Aurobindo: Oh, yes, I know him very well. He, Madhavrao and I were the first revolutionary group and wanted to drive out the English.

Purani: It’s good he protested against demilitarisation.

Sri Aurobindo: Has Gandhi succeeded in disarming the Frontier Pathans?

Purani: When he went there, he objected to armed volunteers keeping guard over him.

Sri Aurobindo: But what should they do in case of attack? Simply stand by?

Purani: No, they have to die resisting non-violently.

Sri Aurobindo: This idea of passive resistance I have never been able to fathom. I can understand an absolute non-resistance to evil, what the Christians mean when they say, “Resist not evil.” You may die without resisting and accept the consequences as sent by God. But to change the opponent’s heart by passive resistance is something I don’t understand.

Purani: I agree with the Modern Review that by this method one allows evil to triumph. It seems foolish to expect that a goonda’s heart will melt in that way.

Sri Aurobindo: Precisely. Gandhi has been trying to apply to ordinary life what belongs to spirituality. Non-violence or Ahimsa as a spiritual attitude and practice is perfectly intelligible and has a standing of its own. You may not accept it in toto but it has a basis in reality. To apply it to ordinary life is absurd. One then ignores – as the Europeans do in several things – the principle of Adhikarbheda and the difference of situation.

Purani: Gandhi’s point is that in either case you die. If you die with arms you encourage and perpetuate the killing method.

Sri Aurobindo: And if you die without arms you encourage and perpetuate passive resistance. (Laughter)

It is certainly a principle which can be applied successfully if practised on a mass scale, especially by unarmed people like Indians. I understand this principle, because you, being unarmed are left with no other choice. But even if it succeeds, it is not because you have changed the heart of the enemy but because you have made it impossible for him to rule. That is what happened in Ireland. Of course, there was armed resistance also, but it would not have succeeded without passive resistance side by side.

What a tremendous generaliser Gandhi is! Passive resistance, Charkha and celibacy for all! One can’t be a member of the Congress without oneself spinning! I wonder how many of Gandhi’s followers do it.

Purani: Now they have removed the demand. Nobody took spinning seriously.

Sri Aurobindo: How do you expect anyone to take it seriously? If I were asked to spin, I would offer passive resistance myself – complete Satyagraha. (Laughter) I wonder what Abanindra Tagore and D would have done.

Nirodbaran: It seems Nandalal Bose did spinning.

Sri Aurobindo: Isn’t he a man of an ascetic temperament? There was somebody who even wrote that the Chakra referred to in the Gita is really the Charkha!

Purani: There are many ascetically-minded enthusiasts whom people look up to as Gurus. About one of them a friend told me, “He can attain the Supermind.” I replied, “No objection. Let him try.”

Sri Aurobindo: These people will stumble at the very first step to the Supermind. They have to give up all their fixed ideas.