Nirodbaran
Talks with Sri Aurobindo
Volume 1
10 December 1938 – 14 January 1941
22 January 1939
Sri Aurobindo surprised Nirodbaran by asking him, “What about Dilip’s fast?” The day before, Nirodbaran had told Sri Aurobindo that Dilip would fast on the following day which was his birthday. But Nirodbaran had forgotten all about it.
Nirodbaran: In the morning Dilip took bread, butter, tea, etc., and at noon I hear he went in for a light meal.
Sri Aurobindo: Fasting with bread and milk?
Champaklal: People in Gujarat consider that they can take bread and milk on a fast.
Sri Aurobindo: That is also the custom in Bengal, isn’t it? It reminds me of a story. Nevinson went to see Tilak and said, “Mr. Tilak received me naked in his loincloth.” (Laughter)
At the end of this talk, Purani entered.
Nirodbaran: Purani seems to be bubbling with news.
Sri Aurobindo: What is the news?
Purani: No news today. I read two fine jokes on Soviet Russia in a book called Inside Europe. I looked up also what Lindbergh has said on the Soviet air-fleet. He says, “The Soviet air-fleet is not so powerful as is thought.”
Sri Aurobindo: In what way is it not powerful?
Purani: He doesn’t say anything more.
Sri Aurobindo: That is very vague. Does he mean that the aeroplanes are not made of sound material or that the pilots are not well trained? If that is all he says, he doesn’t give any information.
In the war between Russia and Japan, the Japanese admitted that the Russian artillery was remarkable: it didn’t miss the mark; but the infantry was not so good, for when they got a good opportunity they failed to take advantage of it. On the other hand, the Japanese army is perhaps the best in the world. In spite of overwhelming numbers against them in China, they have been able to conquer. Chiang Kai-shek had trumpeted that he would defeat the Japanese in a very short time. They didn’t give any reply, but at the end of each such defeat we find them farther advanced in China than before.
Purani: They say the Japanese are not good in the air. They missed their targets many times.
Sri Aurobindo: I don’t know about that. The Japanese are good at concentrating on one thing at a time, but aeronautics requires concentration on many points at once.
Purani: Mussolini is asking all Italians to close down their firms in Djibouti and he does not want to send anything by railway: thus he wants to starve the people. He is also trying to cut off the railway that connects Djibouti with Abyssinia and use another road through Eritrea to Asmara.
Sri Aurobindo: That would not make France give up Djibouti. Djibouti is a sea-port and a connecting link between France and her eastern colonies. Even if the Premier and Flandin want to give it up, the French people won’t.
After this there was a change in the talk. An American lady’s visit to the Ashram was mentioned. Sri Aurobindo said, “She was much impressed by our gardens and other things. She considered the Ashram to be the work of a genius and probably thought that genius doesn’t need any finance.” A few other remarks were made and then a new subject came up.
Nirodbaran: We spoke of inner voices yesterday. Is there any standard by which one can judge that a voice is the right one?
Sri Aurobindo: What standard? There is no such standard. How can you judge whether a voice is right or wrong?
Nirodbaran: Then is Hitler right when he hears a voice and follows it?
Sri Aurobindo: Right in what sense? Morally?
Purani: Perhaps Nirodbaran means spiritually right.
Sri Aurobindo: How can one say that Hitler’s voice is not right? He has seen that by following it he has been able to get Austria and Czechoslovakia and has been successful in many other things. As I said, the Cosmic Spirit may want him to go that way. Even from the standpoint of ethics, one can’t say Hitler is immoral. He is very restricted as regards food, is supposed to have no wife or mistress and leads a very controlled life in all respects. He shows qualities which are considered moral. Robespierre was also a moral man and yet he killed many people.
Nirodbaran: Then what did you mean when you spoke of a true voice?
Sri Aurobindo: Oh, that is the psychic voice. But there can be many other voices from many planes. And how will you say which is right? What would you say of Lord Curzon’s decision?
Nirodbaran: For the Bengal Partition?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. Was he right? He thought he had the right inspiration in what he was doing, while others thought he was quite wrong and yet but for his decision India would not be half as free as she is today. So the Cosmic Spirit may after all have led him to do this in order to bring about that result.
There is a Cabbalist prophecy: the Golden Age will come when the Jews will be driven out and persecuted everywhere. So Hitler by his mass persecution of the Jews may be bringing about the Golden Age!
Nirodbaran: Then has one no responsibility? Can one do as one likes? In that case one becomes a fatalist.
Sri Aurobindo: No, one can’t do as one likes. Everyone is not Hitler and can’t do what Hitler does. One acts according to one’s nature. Your question reminds me of the story of my grandmother. She said, “God has made such a bad world. If I could meet Him I would teach Him what good laws are.” At this my grandfather said, “Yes, that is true. But God has so made His laws that if you intend to meet Him with this attitude you won’t get near Him.” (Laughter)
When we say that Hitler is possessed by a vital power, it is a statement of fact, not a moral judgment. His being possessed is clear from what he does and the way he does it.
But the spiritual point of view is quite different from the moral. There is no question of right or wrong there. One goes above all standards and looks from a higher plane. But then it is essential to have the perception and feeling of the Divine in all. One can see the Divine in all behind the veil of the Gunas, the Nature qualities. From the spiritual plane one finds that the Gita is right about the Gunas and that man is made to do one thing or another by the action of the Gunas. That is why Ramakrishna said about a visiting Sannyasi that he was tamasic Narayana, God inert. But when another Vedantin came along and brought a concubine with him, Ramakrishna could not keep to the same viewpoint. He asked the Vedantin, “Why do you keep a concubine?” The Vedantin replied, “Everything is Maya. So what does it matter what I do?” Ramakrishna said, “Then I spit on your Vedanta.” But logically the Vedantin was right. So long as you believe everything is Maya, you can do as you like.
Purani: What is the truth in the Vama Marga, the left-hand path of Tantra?
Sri Aurobindo: I don’t know. It must have been prescribed with the idea of taking up the lower forces and pulling them high up.
But to go back to our original point about the law of Nature. I remember a young Sannyasi who came to Baroda. He had long nails and used to sit under the trees. Deshpande and I went to see him. I asked him, “What is the standard of action?” He replied, “There is no standard. The thief may be right in stealing because it is his dharma.” Deshpande was very angry to hear that. I said, “It is only a point of view.”
But all this doesn’t mean that there is no consequence for one’s action. As Christ said, offences come, but woe unto him by whom the offence cometh. There is a law of being which throws back upon you the murder, the persecution you carry out. When you inflict suffering on others out of self-will, the suffering will come back to you. That is the law of Karma.
Purani: Somnath Maitra used to quote to me that sloka of Duryodhana: “I know what is dharma, I know what is not dharma, but I cannot gather force to do what I should.”
Sri Aurobindo: The whole question arises when you want to change yourself or change others. Then you say, “This should not be; that should go” and so on. You introduce a rule of the mind into the vital world; but when you go above the mind, you come in contact with your Spirit and the nature of that Spirit is Light, Truth, Purity. When you observe discipline, it is for the Spirit, not for the sake of a mental rule. If you want to attain the standard of Purity, you have to reject what comes in the way. So also about lying. You have to stop lying if you want the Spirit’s Truth; you stop not because of the mental principle of right and wrong but for the sake of the Spirit. There are many parts in one’s nature. One part may try to reject things that contradict one another and that are contrary to the change desired but another part may prevent it. As the Roman poet said, “I see the better and approve of it, but I follow the worse1.”
Purani: The Vedanta says, “There are two sets of teeth in an elephant – one for showing, the other for chewing.”
Sri Aurobindo: All this doesn’t mean that there should be no moral standard. Humanity requires a certain standard. It helps its progress. But from the spiritual point of view, that may also be necessary. Even the Asuras have a place. Ravana had one. As they say, it takes all sorts to make a world.
But again, all this does not mean that one should not recognise other planes. There is the vital plane whose law is force and success. If you have force you win; if you have speed you outrun others. The laws of the mind come in to act as a means of balance. They balance diverse things to make a mental-vital standard.
If you go above the vital and mental planes, you come to a point where the Gita’s “Sarvadharman parityajya”, “Abandon all dharmas”, becomes the principle. But there if you leave out the last portion of the sloka – “Mamekam saranam vraja”, “Take refuge in me” – then you follow your ego and you fall; you become either an Asura or a lunatic or an animal. Even the animals have some sense of right and wrong. That is very well shown in Kipling’s Jungle Book. Have you read it?
Nirodbaran: No.
Sri Aurobindo: Kipling shows how the pack falls on the one that fails to keep up the general standard. By human contact the animals develop their sense of right and wrong more and more.
At this point the Mother came in with Sri Aurobindo’s dinner. So we stopped.
1 “Video meliora proboque, deteriora sequor.”