Nirodbaran
Talks with Sri Aurobindo
Volume 1
10 December 1938 – 14 January 1941
2 February 1939
For two days we had no conversation. Sri Aurobindo had suddenly developed some swelling on his injured leg and we were all anxious about it. Nobody was in a mood to talk. At last Sri Aurobindo himself came out with a reference to politics and the talk started.
Purani: X (an Indian political leader) has sent a telegram to Y, saying this is the end of Fascism and the beginning of true democracy and declaring: “You will be a true president.”
Sri Aurobindo: Does it mean that the true president will follow his followers? That is true democracy! He will choose his followers and then follow them.
Satyendra: Instead of Fascism of the Right, what they perhaps want is a Fascism of the Left.
Purani: The question of the Indian Princes and the States has become a live one now.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. If the Princes could come to a settlement with the Congress, things would be much better. My opinion is that there should be, as some Princes have suggested, an Advisory Board with all the interests represented, as in the old Indian democracies. But nowadays people want the modern type of democracy – the parliamentary form of government. The parliamentary system is doomed. It has brought Europe to its present sorry pass. It has succeeded only in the North – in England and the Scandinavian countries. That is because they are practical materialistic people: they don’t live on ideas and theories. In France you find about thirty parties, and if a new man comes along, he starts the thirty-first. But it is difficult to see where one party differs from another.
Purani: A friend of mine was telling me that in Norway and Sweden the Socialists and the Agrarians have made common cause and evolved a common scheme. They find, for instance, the margin of profit of the industrialists, and then see how much the wages can be raised.
Sri Aurobindo: It is because they are practical people. For in every other place you will find the Socialists and the Agrarians at daggers drawn. If Socialism is to succeed, it has to be on these lines. In other countries the Socialists would demand a raise in the wages without looking into the profits and if thus the industries are killed so much the better according to them: they will be out of the way.
Purani: Did Jean Herbert bring any news of Europe?
Sri Aurobindo: He says that France is lost. She has no friends now. No one trusts her after the betrayal of Czechoslovakia. They didn’t expect anything from England because everybody knows that she cares only for her own interests and, besides, she didn’t commit herself to anything. But France has backed out of her promise. Herbert also says that France has now become a second-rate power because of the loss of her allies. She is following England’s lead but in the end England may leave her in the lurch. He adds that if the dictators are clever enough they will get all they want because France cannot fight them alone.
Purani: But cannot England and France combined meet them?
Sri Aurobindo: No. Even the two are no match for the dictators. And, besides, one doesn’t know what England will do. As I said, she may leave France in the lurch. Blum and Daladier made the worst possible blunders, the one by his non-intervention policy in Spain, the other by betraying the Czechs. Franco’s victory is most dangerous for France.
Purani: But when the two dictators stand together, why is it not possible for England and France to do the same?
Sri Aurobindo: The dictators know their own interests. There is no one to oppose them in their own countries and they can’t be separated. England and France tried the game of separating them. England wanted to placate Italy while France tried to win over Germany but both failed. It is not that Germany and Italy like each other. The Germans despise the Italians and the Italians hate the Germans. But they know on which side their bread is buttered. England is quite unreliable under her present leadership.
Another possibility is the departure of the dictators. A prophetess friend of Suryakumari says that she doesn’t see any future for Mussolini: she sees his body covered with blood. And about Hitler astrological predictions are that his stars are with him up to December. After that his decline will begin. But these prophecies and predictions can’t be fully relied on. If by any chance the dictators go, they won’t have any successors.
Purani: Papers report that although Germany has military power, her economic position is unsatisfactory.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, that is Germany’s weak point. The question is whether the economic structure will last long enough to allow her military strength to tell. If the Germans can win a war quickly, they can go on winning.
And dictators are not people who give things up easily. They have nobody to oppose them or say “No” to their demands. Once a country is involved in war, economic factors don’t count very much. For instance, Italy was badly hit by the League of Nations when they applied sanctions in the Abyssinian War. But she persisted and carried the war through.
Purani: And what has happened to the military power of France? We used to hear so much about her preparedness.
Sri Aurobindo: She foolishly stopped building aeroplanes and then started producing only 250 per month while Germany was producing 1000 and England about 500 per month. Now they are trying to make up the deficit, but it will take a long time to catch up with Germany. However, it is not always preparedness that wins a war. As General Gamelin said, “Though we are not prepared, we shall win.” He was for intervention in Czechoslovakia because in war-time you can get things done at tremendous speed. If France goes on yielding Djibouti, Tunis, etc., there may be an internal revolution in France and perhaps a strong dictator will come and retrieve the disaster. If you want to keep your place and prestige in the world you must stand by your pledges and obligations.
The problem is to save the world from domination by the Asuric Forces. It would be awful to be ruled by the Nazis and Fascists. Their domination will let loose on mankind what are called the Four Powers of Hell – obscurantism, falsehood, suffering and death. Suffering and death mean the horrors of war.
Herbert also says that in Germany the people know absolutely nothing about world opinion. He has been to Germany, so he should be well-informed about it. The Germans know only what Goebbels allows them to know. In Italy too not a single foreign paper is allowed to enter.
Purani: Jwalanti was saying that if one wants to discuss politics or criticise the government, one must look round carefully to see if anybody is overhearing; one must shut the doors and windows.
Sri Aurobindo: These are the Powers of obscurantism and falsehood.
Purani: America is alarmed after the Fascist success in Spain. She is afraid of trouble in Latin America.
Sri Aurobindo: Have you seen Roosevelt’s statement? The French paper reports that it has not appeared in the English papers. Roosevelt has said that if the dictators become too powerful in Europe and Japan in Asia it will be the end of America. She will be attacked from both the Atlantic and the Pacific. They will begin trouble first in Latin America and then in North America. There are many Germans and Italians there and they will start Nazi propaganda.
Roosevelt has foreseen the whole thing and has taken his decision to back the democracies. But it is doubtful whether he can carry the American nation with him. The Americans won’t come into the war unless some Americans are killed by Hitler, and Hitler won’t do that. If they remain aloof, then it will merely be a question of being eaten up last. France will come first, then England, and finally America. Do you know of the three dreams Washington had? First, a war of independence; second, civil war; third, America attacked by many nations, including the yellow races, and her cities destroyed. He dreamt that by a supreme effort she shook herself free. It seems at present as if the third dream were coming true. But if England, France and America stand together, they have a chance of success. For America has the biggest navy, enormous economic resources and huge manpower. She may not have enough military strength on land, but the economic resources and man-power will make up for it.
Purani: Roosevelt is supplying armaments to France and that he can do even if America doesn’t come into a war.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, but Americans may object to it because it may involve them in war.
Purani: Jwalanti was praising Mussolini for what he has done for Italy. She hates his international policy but declares he has done wonderful work for his country.
Sri Aurobindo: Oh yes, especially at the beginning he did very good work. You haven’t read Brailsford’s article about what he did in Libya? Very great efficiency – of course without freedom: each house of the same pattern as the other, all regimented.
(After a pause) By the way, who is this Wazir Hossain we read of?
Purani: He is a retired High Court judge in U.P., a leader of the Shias and a Congressman. His son is a Socialist and was imprisoned by the last administration. He comes from Aligarh University.
Sri Aurobindo: Is Aligarh University nationalist?
Purani: Yes, but Dara says its nationalism is very unreliable, like that of the Ali brothers who remained with Gandhi as long as he was agitating for Khilafat.
Sri Aurobindo: But now the percentage of nationalists among the Muslims is increasing. Look at U.P. and Bihar. The number of nationalists is surely greater than some years ago?
Nirodbaran: Was Dara at Aligarh University?
Purani: You seem to doubt it by your question.
Sri Aurobindo: He wrote an article when he was there. He said that Newton discovered the law of gravitation when the apple fell, but he, Dara, would have been busy eating it rather than thinking out anything.
Nirodbaran: He has written a short drama about the Cyclone and the Flowers – very amusing.
Purani: His rhymes are most original. But he says that with “Supramental” only “dental” can rhyme.
Sri Aurobindo: That concerns Satyendra and establishes his connection with the Supramental. But why only “dental”? There is “transcendental”.
Purani: That is again “dental” – at the end.
Sri Aurobindo: What about “rental”?
Satyendra: That will be rather prosaic.
Sri Aurobindo: “Oriental”? Is that all right? Sometimes Dara writes clever things.
Purani: To return to the Princes. The States are not coming forward with any progressive policy. Bikanir is trying to crush the nationalist movement. Udaipur also.
Sri Aurobindo: Udaipur is understandable; he is old-fashioned. But Bikanir has knocked about in the world. If the Chamber of Princes gives some reforms, it will forestall Vallabhbhai Patel. One should begin with the old Panchayat system in the villages and then work up to the top. The Panchayat system and the guilds are more representative and they have a living contact with people. They are part of the people’s ideas. On the contrary, the parliamentary system, with local bodies – the municipal councils – is not workable. These councils have no living contact with the people. The councillors make only platform speeches and nobody knows what they do for three or four years. At the end they reshuffle and rearrange the whole thing, making their own pile during their period of power. The old British parliamentary system was more representative. The man chosen belonged to the country and had a more living touch with his electors.