Nirodbaran
Talks with Sri Aurobindo
Volume 1
10 December 1938 – 14 January 1941
29 January 1940
Sri Aurobindo (addressing Purani): I have been reading a book of prophecy on the war.
Purani: Prophecy by studying planets?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, the author says that there is going to be peace but it won’t be a satisfactory peace. Germany will fare badly, Hitler will go down and the Third Reich will come to power. Peace is likely to come by March, it will certainly make headway by September. Then he says that Stalin will win. After that he says catastrophic things will happen. There will be terrible destruction – communism will be established everywhere, in England, France, Germany. In England there will be two more dynasties of kings. There will be two more Popes. A new race will come but only after a long age. The time-factor, he says, is problematic. Calculating according to the human year, the astrologers can only speak of events near at hand; far-off events can be predicted accurately only according to the year of the gods. This year of the gods, the author says, is well known to the Hindus in India and by that calculation things have always been correctly predicted.
At the end of the book he brings in my name and says that I have also said that after the violence, destruction and storm, a new race will come.
Satyendra: He has quoted just what suits him.
Sri Aurobindo: Do you know anything about the year of the gods?
Purani: No, I will ask Kapali if he knows anything.
Satyendra: Does he say anything about America?
Sri Aurobindo: He says America will also be involved in the war.
Satyendra: There won’t be any communism there?
Sri Aurobindo: No, they will have a mystic evolution. This man brings out a book of prophecy every year and sends me a copy every time. He is a friend of Maurice Magre. He says that in this dark world I am the only one who can be called a real man. (Sri Aurobindo said this laughing.)
Satyendra: The Life Divine has come out at the right time then.
Nirodbaran: Your books have a good sale.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, not only my books; the Ramakrishna Mission books also are selling well now.
Nirodbaran: But according to this astrologer the supramental race is still far away.
Satyendra (smiling): I told you so.
Purani: He doesn’t speak of the supramental race.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, by the new race he means a being more highly evolved than man.
Nirodbaran: Satyendra’s prediction is correct.
Sri Aurobindo: But he doesn’t say on what basis he makes that prediction.
Satyendra: By looking at ourselves.
Purani: England and France speak of attacking Germany from the south.
Sri Aurobindo: Through Romania?
Purani: Yes.
Sri Aurobindo: They will have to violate the Romanians’ neutrality. Even then it won’t be enough. They will have to pass through Bulgaria also.
Purani: But if Romania is attacked by Russia the allies may help Romania.
Sri Aurobindo: In that case they will have to take in Turkey. Turkey is not willing to fight Russia.
Purani: England is building a naval Maginot Line.
Sri Aurobindo: For what? Against German marines?
Purani: Perhaps to prevent the landing of troops in England.
Sri Aurobindo: Troops?
Purani: Or to prevent an attack by the German Navy.
Sri Aurobindo: The German Navy can’t attack. If it comes out into the open, it will be smashed. And the Russian Navy is also nothing to speak of. No, it may be to prevent the laying of mines by German aeroplanes.
We had with us Krishnaprem’s letter to Dilip on Grace versus Tapasya. Nirodbaran was looking up a word in the dictionary.
Satyendra: Do you want to know the meaning of “androgynous” in Krishnaprem’s statement: “Male and female are the two elements of our androgynous psyche”?
Sri Aurobindo (looking at Satyendra): How do you feel about it?
Satyendra: It may be true. Receptiveness, it seems, characterises the soul and that is a feminine quality. Krishnaprem says that Newman refers to the soul as a woman. Krishnaprem also speaks of the Vaishnavas trying to identify themselves with the Gopis in order to love Krishna.
Sri Aurobindo: The soul, he says, may be considered a marriage of receptiveness and Tapasya – it is a married couple. The Upanishad also speaks of eko vasi (one controller).
Purani: Can receptiveness be said to be the same as Grace?
Sri Aurobindo: No, Grace is conditioned by receptiveness.
Purani: What Krishnaprem means by receptiveness appears to be the same as Bhakti, devotion.
Sri Aurobindo: People who follow the path of love and Bhakti rely most on Grace.
Purani: We hear that Grace is always present. Whenever one opens to it, one gets the response.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, you have to open to it.
Nirodbaran: Krishnaprem makes a distinction between power, which is the reward of Tapasya, and Grace, which is the reward of receptiveness. Does it mean that only receptive persons get Grace?
Sri Aurobindo: How can you have Grace without receptiveness? Even if there is Tapasya, the result doesn’t depend on Tapasya. As they say, only the Grace of Brahman can give the result.
Purani: The Upanishad also says: “To him whom the Spirit chooses, He reveals Himself.”
Nirodbaran: The Buddhists don’t believe in Grace.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. They say you have to do everything by yourself. They don’t believe in the soul, so male-female doesn’t count.
Champaklal: If a man is not receptive, the Grace won’t act?
Sri Aurobindo: It acts in order to make him receptive.
Champaklal: He receives the Grace then?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, but it doesn’t descend into him.
Champaklal: How is that?
Nirodbaran: It means it acts only from above.
Satyendra: From behind also, till he gets an opening, and then it descends.
Dr. Becharlal: Just as, whether a man is conscious or not, the Agni burns in him, doesn’t Grace act irrespective of everything?
Sri Aurobindo: It doesn’t follow that there is no difference in its action in a conscious man and an unconscious one.
Nirodbaran: You mean there is a difference in the degree of action? A man who is more conscious receives more?
Sri Aurobindo: Of course. That goes without saying. Otherwise there would be no difference between a worldly man and a seeker. Grace could as well make the worldly man realise the Divine and it would act equally in both. As the consciousness increases, one becomes more and more receptive and the progress also is quicker.
Nirodbaran: How does it act more effectively? Because it creates faith?
Sri Aurobindo: It acts in every way.
Champaklal: There are some people who have no faith in you or the Mother. Even then they receive something from a flower sent to them.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, even if there is no faith, Grace can act. You know about St. Paul. He used to persecute the Christians. Once in the midst of his persecution he suddenly got a vision and was converted. Sarat Chatterji had no faith; yet he was saved twice by a flower and he came to believe and feel that there was something. Everybody is receptive in some way or other.
Champaklal: Sometimes one finds that an outsider who has come here feels or receives something from a flower while a sadhak doesn’t. Does it mean that the outsider is more receptive?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, in that particular respect.
Purani: Krishnaprem’s distinction is rather strange, because Tantra implies just the opposite of what he says. Tantra makes the female the active part.
Sri Aurobindo: There are two ways of seeing it. In one, the masculine is active and the feminine is passive, while, in the other, Prakriti, the feminine, is the executive force and Purusha, the masculine, is the witness.
Satyendra: In commenting on the Veda you have interpreted the Supreme as male, female and neither.
Sri Aurobindo (laughing): Yes – the Gita also makes the Divine appear variously: the Divine says, “I am in everybody”, and then, “Everybody is in me”, and finally, “Everybody is in me but I am not in them.”
Satyendra: Krishnaprem’s view is that one element should not be subordinate to the other.
Sri Aurobindo: That doesn’t rule out the fact that one element may be predominant and outweigh the other.
Nirodbaran: I somehow don’t like the clear-cut distinction made by him. He says that the flow of power comes to make the Tapasya. But that itself is due to the receptivity of the one who does the Tapasya and consequently due to Grace.
Satyendra: He himself doesn’t say that it is the whole truth.
Sri Aurobindo: No, it is not the whole truth; it contains only an element. The truth is infinite, and Krishnaprem states one aspect of the infinite truth. Infinite factors enter into it and there are infinite ways of action.
Krishnaprem has objected to the word Grace as taken and understood by the Christians. The Christians say that nothing can be done or achieved except by Grace and they leave everything to it.
Evening
The morning talk did not quite satisfy Nirodbaran: there were still some points to be cleared up, especially regarding Grace versus effort. Nirodbaran told Champaklal that he would raise the topic again and inform Sri Aurobindo that Champaklal also did not believe in Tapasya. Champaklal said that Nirodbaran could tell this to Sri Aurobindo but only when Champaklal was present. In the evening Champaklal himself was in the mood to ask something and everybody saw him slowly approaching Sri Aurobindo; his expression made Nirodbaran laugh.
Sri Aurobindo: What is the matter?
Nirodbaran: Champaklal is going to ask something.
Champaklal: No, no. (Immediately afterwards) Can a person receive something without his knowledge?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes; man doesn’t know everything. He doesn’t know what he is or can be.
Champaklal: Sometimes is it not better that he doesn’t know?
Sri Aurobindo (smiling and with a stress): Sometimes.
Later, after Purani had come, there was an expectation that Nirodbaran would ask a question. All were looking at one another. The situation was so funny that Nirodbaran burst into laughter.
Purani: Nirodbaran is on the point of asking some question.
Sri Aurobindo: Is it a formidable question?
Nirodbaran: Oh, no. But did you say in the morning that the female element Krishnaprem speaks of corresponds or is equivalent to love, devotion, etc.?
Sri Aurobindo: No, I didn’t say that. Why should it be so?
Satyendra: Yes, why? Doesn’t Sachchidananda have love?
Nirodbaran: As Krishnaprem speaks of the Vaishnavas’ self-identification with the Gopis, I thought it comes to that. Otherwise, why does he associate receptiveness with the female element?
Sri Aurobindo: Because the female is passive, dependent – though she may be passively active! The male is active, strong and self-reliant. That, at any rate, is what the word “male” suggests in English.
Satyendra: Receptiveness includes these things and is a way of representing the inner life and working.
Purani: Even if you accept that, you can’t say that the male aspect is without love.
Sri Aurobindo: The male aspect also loves – it is devoted to a woman – but in a different way. Similarly the female has other aspects than love.
Purani: We have to consider the Tantric idea of Shakti.
Sri Aurobindo: Quite so.
Nirodbaran: At the end of his letter Krishnaprem says that both the elements should be equal; one mustn’t stress one aspect more. Is this true?
Sri Aurobindo: What do you mean by “true”? If you mean true as a fact, then it is not. But he says “should be.”
Nirodbaran: But is the idea correct?
Purani: Perhaps he means that in an ideal case there would be equality.
Nirodbaran: But why? There may be people, even if exceptional, who don’t believe in the male element, that is, in Tapasya. For instance, Girish Ghosh refused point-blank to take Ramakrishna’s name when asked to. He said, “I can’t. You have to do everything for me.” And, as far as I know, there was a great change in his life.
Purani: I have heard that he wasn’t able to give himself completely to Ramakrishna.
Sri Aurobindo: You mean that he made some personal effort?
Purani: He found at the end that he hadn’t left everything to Ramakrishna.
Sri Aurobindo: That means he put in some effort of his own.
Nirodbaran: I haven’t heard this.
Satyendra: Then he must have had entire faith in Ramakrishna.
Nirodbaran: Yes. So I say that if one has a living faith, one is not required to do Tapasya. Isn’t that true?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes.
Satyendra: But aren’t some effort and straining inevitable?
Nirodbaran: As for myself, I have found that many things have dropped away – maybe temporarily – from me without my making any effort worth the name.
Sri Aurobindo: But you wanted sincerely to drop them.
Nirodbaran: Yes, I did, but without making any effort. So I say it was due to Grace.
Sri Aurobindo: That may be so in your case.
Nirodbaran: No. In many cases I have known things to have happened in this way.
Purani: There was some effort. Only, you can say that the effort was negligible in proportion to the success.
Sri Aurobindo: It is not a question of proportion. One may have put in a great deal of effort and yet there could be no result because there was not a complete and total sincerity. On the other hand, when the result comes with little effort it is because the whole being has responded – and Grace found it possible to act. All the same, effort is a contributory factor. Sometimes one goes on making an effort with no result or even the condition becomes worse. And when one has given it up, one finds suddenly that the result has come. It may be that the effort was keeping up the resistance too. And when the effort is given up, the resistance says, “This fellow has given up effort. What is the use of resisting any more?” (Laughter)
Nirodbaran: Champaklal also doesn’t believe in Tapasya.
Champaklal: By that I don’t mean one must indulge in the lower nature. But otherwise I don’t believe in Tapasya – it’s true.
Sri Aurobindo: But when one wants something, one has to concentrate one’s energies on a particular point.
Nirodbaran: That, of course; but is that the sense of the word Tapasya? By “Tapasya” we mean something done against one’s nature, something unpleasant and requiring effort.
Sri Aurobindo: That is the popular idea of Tapasya. People think it means standing on their heads, sitting on nails, etc. It is not the correct idea. The correct idea is: concentration of all one’s energies in order to gain a particular object or aim which one wants, and this is not always unpleasant or difficult.
Purani: Why does Nirodbaran think that effort is always associated with struggle, unpleasantness?
Sri Aurobindo: Tapasya can surely be done for something one likes or wishes to have.
Nirodbaran: But when I sit in meditation, for instance, I have to make an effort to gather up my scattered mind which is moving about. And it is an unpleasant laborious effort.
Sri Aurobindo: But something in you wants to do it. Otherwise you wouldn’t do it. You gather up your energies and put them on a particular point.
Nirodbaran: Yes, but even for that gathering up, some effort is necessary, which is not always easy.
Sri Aurobindo: When you want a thing, effort will always be there to get it. It is more a concentration of energy, I should say.
Champaklal: A man may find it easy to meditate for many hours.
Sri Aurobindo: But there also you have to concentrate all your energy. A man who is playing cricket has to concentrate on the ball, the bat, the wicket, etc., gathering up all his energies from other fields.
Nirodbaran: That is comparatively easy because he finds interest in the game.
Purani: But it wouldn’t be easy for a man who doesn’t like cricket but likes hockey.
Nirodbaran: A sportsman can shift his interest without much difficulty.
Sri Aurobindo: It is said in the Upanishad that God created the world by Tapas. I believe he didn’t find it difficult, though he had to make an effort. (Laughter)
Nirodbaran: If you bring in God, we mortals have no chance.
Purani: That is only an illustration.
Sri Aurobindo: I myself have to make an effort to read and interpret the Vedas, but I don’t find it unpleasant; another may. (To Nirodbaran) When you write poetry, you have to make an effort, but it is not unpleasant.
Nirodbaran: Sometimes I am on the verge of kicking away pencil and book.
Satyendra: There are instances in literature to explain some points about concentration of energy. For example, a woman goes about doing various works while she keeps a pitcher on her head. Her inner mind is concentrated on the pitcher though the outer is otherwise engaged.
Nirodbaran: But she had to practise keeping the pitcher on her head.
Satyendra: In the case of the Gopis, it was not that they had to make a difficult effort to remember Krishna: they spontaneously fell in love with him and something in them was on fire. So when something in the being is touched the concentration doesn’t require labour or effort.
By the way, at times one may make an effort for a thing, but the result comes in quite a different way.
Sri Aurobindo: That very often happens. In my case, Lele wanted me to get devotion, love and hear the inner voice, but instead I got the experience of the silent Brahman.
Satyendra: And he prayed and prayed with incantations, etc., to pull you up to the other condition. (Laughter)
Sri Aurobindo: No rigid rule is possible to make in these matters.
Nirodbaran: That is why I don’t quite like the last part of Krishnaprem’s letter where he says that male and female must be equal and that one can’t be without the other, and such things.
Sri Aurobindo: He says “should be”, not “must be”.
Nirodbaran: But why should it be?
Sri Aurobindo: That is his point of view. He is free to hold it.