Nirodbaran
Talks with Sri Aurobindo
Volume 1
10 December 1938 – 14 January 1941
24 February 1940
During breakfast the Mother spoke to Sri Aurobindo about his leg.
The Mother: An offer to cure your leg has come from Agarwal. He says he has got some Force by which he will rub his hand over your knee and cure it. He has cured one case of fracture like that.
Sri Aurobindo (shaking his head): You know there was another man who seemed to have such powers?
The Mother: No.
Champaklal: Yes, Mother; he has come for Darshan. Anilbaran says he has cured many cases of leprosy, typhoid and other illnesses. He cures by calling down your Force.
The Mother: If he cures with my Force, I can myself cure Sri Aurobindo. Sri Aurobindo can himself do it. Somebody else need not do it.
Champaklal: He has not offered to do anything. We simply heard about him. He had come for Darshan before too. His name is Hanumant Rao.
The Mother: Oh, yes, I remember him now.
Champaklal: Mother, why don’t you cure Sri Aurobindo or why doesn’t Sri Aurobindo himself do it? (The Mother simply smiled.)
Satyendra: Sri Aurobindo has said the body can be transformed only after the descent of the Supermind into the subconscient.
The Mother: Naturally.
Champaklal: It can’t be cured before that?
The Mother: It can be.
Satyendra: When the Supermind conquers the subconscient physical, it will be automatically all right.
The Mother (smiling): Not automatically.
Satyendra: Because it was not done before, Sri Krishna had to leave his body?
The Mother: It is only Sri Aurobindo’s case and mine that are difficult. Other cases are comparatively much easier. And already some cases have been cured.
Satyendra: Even ankylosis, Mother?
The Mother: Yes, even a spinal case when the doctors had given up all hope. By two hours’ constant concentration he was cured, not only cured but he married afterwards and had children.
Champaklal (addressing Satyendra): Do you hear?
Satyendra: Yes. I didn’t say I didn’t believe in miracles. I have myself seen many.
Champaklal: You believe in them somewhere else but not here!
After the sponging, Champaklal gave Sri Aurobindo a book with some pictures by Krishnalal’s brother to look at. This brother had come to the Ashram. He became a little deranged and had to go back. Some time later we heard that he died of burns.
Champaklal: Pictures by Krishnalal’s brother.
Sri Aurobindo: Krishna’s brother? (Laughter. After looking at the pictures) He is better as a sculptor than as a painter. His paintings are weak and poor imitations, but the sculptures have power and individuality. (Seeing a photograph of him in which his head was bandaged as a result of a lathi charge during the Non-cooperation Movement.) He looks as if he was suffering. (Returning the book) He was predestined to die as he did.
Nirodbaran: Why such a destiny?
Sri Aurobindo: His past Karma required some such experience.
Dr. Manilal: But Karma …
Sri Aurobindo: Not Karma in the ordinary sense. It is his psychic being, his soul, that had to pass through such an experience in order to exhaust some Karma left over.
Purani (after some time): I have consulted Shivji. He says the Jains believe that the world is Swayambhu. So from the beginning all species have been the same and the Tirthankara is a Nimitta-karana (instrumental cause). The whole secret of liberation consists in bringing together Nimitta (instrument) and Upadana. Upadana is inherent capacity. Every soul is essentially free and its freedom can be realised with the help of Nimitta and Kala, time. It is like a seed with all potentialities in it but it must have time, environment and other circumstances for its fruition. The Tirthankara is only a Nimitta. Everything has to be done by the Upadana from within. It is like being a lion cub living in a group of lambs; he thinks he is a lamb. But when he sees another lion, he becomes conscious and free. The other lion actually does nothing.
Sri Aurobindo: How does he become free then? Is there any influence that goes out from a Tirthankara? Does anything help?
Purani: No. Nothing helps.
Dr. Manilal: It is like this, Sir: you have a house with a garden.
Sri Aurobindo: All that is metaphor. My question is whether a Tirthankara exerts any influence.
Dr. Manilal: The Acharyas by their teachings.
Sri Aurobindo: That is a mental influence. I don’t want to know about mental and philosophical influence. I want to know if any psychological influence is exerted. The Shishya (disciple) of course may or may not benefit, according to his capacity, openness, etc.; that is granted. But a Guru does give something direct from himself to the disciple. I want to know whether such an influence is given by a Tirthankara.
Purani: No.
Dr. Manilal: It is said that wherever a Tirthankara is within a radius of four Yojanas1, all creatures, animals, human beings, etc., live in peace and lose their enmity.
Purani: Yes, Dharamchand was telling me of a vision he had about a Tirthankara sitting on a central throne and all of the species listening to him.
Sri Aurobindo: You wanted to be one of the species? (Laughter)
Satyendra: If what Dr. Manilal says is true, then there is some influence emanating from the Tirthankara.
Sri Aurobindo: That is due to his aura.
Purani (addressing Dr. Manilal): Are there no instances in the life of Mahavira explaining this?
Dr. Manilal: I don’t know. I have to make a research. (To Sri Aurobindo) You also have an aura, Sir – all around Pondicherry, it is said.
Sri Aurobindo: You mean to say that there is no fighting in Pondicherry? (Laughter)
Nirodbaran: Not that; but there should be less trouble, disharmony, suffering.
Sri Aurobindo: Do some research. (Laughter)
Champaklal: When the Mother’s car met with an accident a long time ago, it was said that it could happen only because the car had gone beyond your aura.
Sri Aurobindo: Which accident? When the chauffeur was injured?
Champaklal: Yes.
Nirodbaran: We have heard that there is a protective aura up to a certain limit. Beyond that one is not always safe.
Satyendra: Does it mean that people living in Bombay or Calcutta don’t get help?
Sri Aurobindo: It is not like that. An aura is something that projects itself from the vital and physical being; those who are open can feel it and be influenced by it.
Dr. Manilal: When I come for the Mother’s interview or even stay here I feel something everywhere, while at Baroda I don’t get that peace and calm. Why?
Sri Aurobindo: Surely there ought to be a difference between Baroda and here? There is no Vallabhbhai here, no office work and no family affairs.
Purani: About Nigodha, not Jiva, the Jains say there are many micro-organisms inhabiting our body and several other things. A potato, for instance, is compact with these Jivas.
Satyendra: That is why the Jains don’t eat potatoes.
Purani: All vegetables that grow underground have these Jivas.
Sri Aurobindo: And do the vegetables that grow above the ground have fewer Jivas? For example, in dal or flour are there fewer?
Purani: Yes. To return to Jainism: each soul, according to it, is free but has chosen to be bound and so it is bound.
Sri Aurobindo: Oh, it is bound because it has chosen not to be free?
Purani: And the creation, as we said, is Swayambhu: all species and all forms have been the same from eternity and will remain so.
Sri Aurobindo: All forms, too? What about the dinosaurs then – and other prehistoric animals? Where are they?
Dr. Manilal: They must be somewhere. (Laughter) It is as in chemistry: in some form they exist somewhere. According to science, nothing can be lost.
Sri Aurobindo: Does it also mean that you, Manilal, have been just the same Manilal from the very beginning of creation? (Laughter)
Dr. Manilal: Maybe, Sir.
Champaklal (To Dr. Manilal): When are you going?
Dr. Manilal: Tomorrow.
Sri Aurobindo: Tomorrow?
Dr. Manilal: Yes, Sir.
Champaklal: You don’t want to see the results of your treatment?
Dr. Manilal: Sri Aurobindo doesn’t want to try.
Nirodbaran: But you didn’t prove its effectiveness on Purani, as Sri Aurobindo suggested.
Satyendra: If you try that rice and dal treatment for the head, let us know the results.
Sri Aurobindo: Dinner to the head?
Nirodbaran (To Dr. Manilal): When are you coming again?
Dr. Manilal: August.
Sri Aurobindo: Or April?
Nirodbaran (To Dr. Manilal): But next time you may find the door locked.
Dr. Manilal: Send me a wire.
Sri Aurobindo: What is that?
Champaklal: Nirodbaran says that no more service may be required of you and so we will all be driven out of your room. He may be right.
Dr. Manilal (to Champaklal): Why do you expect this?
Satyendra: It is not his expectation but his fear.
Sri Aurobindo: Expectation on Champaklal’s part in the sense of the French espérer, which means both hope and expectation of what is to come!
Dr. Manilal: I always feel inspired by an image of Buddha or a photo of Christ.
Sri Aurobindo: Photo? There was no photography at that time.
Dr. Manilal: I mean picture. I feel peace within whenever I see one.
Sri Aurobindo: You may have been a Christian, then, in a past life.
Dr. Manilal: But Shankara does not give me any peace.
Evening
Dr. Becharlal: Is remaining in the Mother’s consciousness the same as Japa?
Sri Aurobindo: How do you mean?
Dr. Becharlal: Are we not in the same state?
Sri Aurobindo: No. Japa is a means to the other, just like constant remembrance; both lead to the Mother’s consciousness.
Dr. Becharlal: Aren’t Japa and remembrance the same thing?
Sri Aurobindo: Remembrance is done by the mind, while japa is done by speech, the use of a name or something equivalent to it.
Dr. Manilal: Which is better, Sir?
Sri Aurobindo: Both can be effective.
Dr. Manilal: But which is better? Doesn’t Japa sometimes tend to be mechanical?
Sri Aurobindo: It depends on the person.
At this point the Mother came and the talk stopped. During the sponging, Dr. Manilal wanted Dr. Becharlal to resume the talk.
Dr. Manilal: Becharlal wants to ask you something more. His questions were not answered.
Sri Aurobindo: They were.
Dr. Manilal: But not completely.
Sri Aurobindo: What was incomplete? If you want to ask anything more, ask.
Dr. Manilal: Japa and remembrance seem to me to be the same, Sir.
Sri Aurobindo: How can they be the same? As I said, you do Japa of a name or some mantra without there being any mental element in it, while you remember something with your mind.
Dr. Manilal: But when I do Japa in my heart, I remember the name of Miraravinda, Miraravinda.
Sri Aurobindo: That is a name! That is a name!
Dr. Manilal: How can one remember without a name, then?
Sri Aurobindo: Why not? I can remember you though I may be confused about your name and call you Murtilal instead of Manilal. (Laughter)
Nirodbaran (To Dr. Manilal): When you go away we shall still remember you.
Dr. Manilal: That will be in connection with my name.
Sri Aurobindo: Why? It will be your Rupa and Swarupa. (Laughter) Remembrance is dwelling on the idea of God or, if you like, his image.
Dr. Manilal: Japa tends to be mechanical, Sir; one does Japa but at the same time thinks of his household matters, as when one says, “The cow is getting loose!”
Sri Aurobindo: But sometimes Japa may go on, the cow may also be there, but the mind gets loose. (Laughter)
Dr. Manilal: Which is better, Sir?
Sri Aurobindo: That depends on the person and the way he does it.
Dr. Manilal: There is Manilal and there is Becharlal, Sir.
Sri Aurobindo: Ask Becharlal. Which do you find better?
Dr Becharlal: Remaining in the Mother’s consciousness – that is, feeling the Mother’s presence and influence, feeling her action in oneself.
Sri Aurobindo: That, of course.
Dr. Manilal: What is meant by the Mother’s consciousness?
Sri Aurobindo: As he said, feeling the presence and the influence.
Dr. Manilal: Remembrance is also getting the presence – they are the same.
Sri Aurobindo: How? When you are not here, we remember you; when you are here, we don’t need to do so, for we have your presence.
Satyendra: That means you haven’t got the true consciousness; you still have to go by the mind. (Laughter)
Dr. Manilal (after some time): People who worship images – do they get their Ishta (chosen deity)?
Sri Aurobindo: It depends on their faith. There are plenty of instances where people have got what they wanted by worshipping images. Images are only forms.
Purani: At the age of ten, during my sacred thread ceremony at the Ambaji temple in Gujarat, I saw a lot of visions, various lights, many forms of the Mother. I thought that everybody was seeing these things. I had faith, of course.
Sri Aurobindo: There must have been a living Presence in that temple.
Satyendra: Yes, Sir. Plenty of people have seen visions there, and people go there with a living faith.
Nirodbaran (to Purani): How do you know they were the Mother’s forms?
Sri Aurobindo: Oh, that is easy.
Purani: Those who don’t see visions hear sounds.
Nirodbaran (To Dr. Manilal): Which did you get?
Dr. Manilal: Neither.
Nirodbaran: I would have been in the same boat. We seem to be alike. We must have had some relation in a previous life.
Sri Aurobindo: I suppose that is why both of you have come back as doctors in this life!
Dr. Manilal: But I was not a doctor at the time I went to that temple.
Sri Aurobindo: Ah, but the doctor must have been latent in you.
Dr. Manilal: Becharlal also is a doctor.
Sri Aurobindo: He is less of a doctor.
Purani: He is more of a devotee.
Nirodbaran: I am less of a doctor too.
Satyendra: You! You are both a doctor and a devotee. (To Sri Aurobindo) Today, when he was wondering whether to put a sling or not, I told him, “Go to the next room and meditate.”
Sri Aurobindo: Meditate? For what?
Nirodbaran: To get the decision by intuition.
Sri Aurobindo: Indecision? (Laughter)
Dr. Manilal: What case?
Satyendra: Anusuya’s. Nirodbaran says he no longer needs to meditate about it. The decision is automatic now. (Laughter)
Nirodbaran: Talking of visions, Sisir Mitra told me that Nandalal had a vision of Vishnu in an image. He was going somewhere and on the way he saw an image of Vishnu in a temple. It was nothing beautiful but he kept on gazing at it till suddenly he saw Vishnu come out from the image and enter into him. When his pupil came to call him he replied in a sort of trance, “Do you know who I am?” Again, once while taking his bath, he saw that it was somebody else who was doing it, not he. Two or three recent paintings he has done just like a passive instrument. He was much amazed.
Sri Aurobindo: That happens to artists and poets.
Nirodbaran: But he never had this experience before.
Satyendra: These are recent experiences?
Nirodbaran: Yes.
Sri Aurobindo: Is he in the habit of doing meditation?
Nirodbaran: I don’t know.
Sri Aurobindo: If he is, then these experiences may come now and then. There is something there in the consciousness which has been prepared by meditation and one gets these visions and experiences as a result. Otherwise it must have been a natural opening.
Nirodbaran: He had a two hours’ talk with Sisir and was so much moved by Sisir’s account of the Ashram that he embraced him.
Sri Aurobindo: Did Sisir meet him after going from here?
Nirodbaran: Yes. Tagore seems to be saying that what we are writing here is neither Bengali nor Sanskrit. That won’t do in Bengali poetry. Of course Nishikanto is excluded.
Purani: He wants everybody to follow him. He can’t like Dilip since he published Harin’s letter in Anami.
Sri Aurobindo: What letter?
Purani: Harin wrote to Dilip that if they want something new in Bengali they must get rid of Tagore’s influence. Tagore is dominating too much.
Sri Aurobindo (smiling): That is not untrue. I didn’t see that letter.
Purani: Yes, it is there. Dilip also made comments, after which Tagore can’t like him. Then you also wrote to Dilip that he has brought some new element in his poems, the element of Bhakti – which no other poet had done before.
Sri Aurobindo: Bhakti? I couldn’t have said that.
Purani: Perhaps the psychic element, and you didn’t include Tagore.
Sri Aurobindo: About this new poetry, is it true that it is not Bengali?
Nirodbaran: I don’t know. Tagore admits that there may be a spiritual element.
Sri Aurobindo: Oh, he admits this?
Nirodbaran: Yes. But, though he may not understand it, why shouldn’t it be Bengali? He says he was rather surprised to hear that Sahana had taken up building work instead of music.
Sri Aurobindo: He heard that? He ought to be pleased as it is a work for the masses.
1 A yojana is a varying measure, commonly equal to about eight miles but in ancient times four and a half or even only two and a half miles.