Nirodbaran

Talks with Sri Aurobindo

Volume 1

10 December 1938 – 14 January 1941

3 March 1940

Nirodbaran: Dutt was much impressed, it seems, by the Ashram, and much moved.

Sri Aurobindo: How?

Nirodbaran: Don’t know; that is what they are saying.

Purani: Nolini was telling his last story.

Sri Aurobindo: What is it?

Purani: It seems it was when he was interned somewhere.

Sri Aurobindo: Was he interned?

Nirodbaran: Yes, in Cooch Bihar, he said.

Purani: His father was anxious to reinstate him in his job. So he thought the best way would be to make him see Sir Andréw Fraser who might then think that Dutt was quite innocent. Dutt had to be coaxed to agree but on the condition that he would only see him in his Bengali dress and wouldn’t wait in the Governor’s antechamber. It was agreed. Dutt then put on a dirty dhoti and shirt and kept his slippers on. In that condition he went straight to Fraser whose legs were shaking out of fear, and his right hand was slightly thrust forward. A bodyguard stood behind Fraser with a revolver pointed at Dutt. Dutt could even see the metallic point of the revolver.

Sri Aurobindo (laughing): Nonsense. He could see the metallic point of his own imagination.

Purani: After the interview, while he was coming away, he said, “My father has asked me to offer his thanks to you,” to which Fraser laughed aloud.

Sri Aurobindo: What has Fraser got to do with his job? He was at Bombay.

Purani: Perhaps Fraser could cast some influence.

Sri Aurobindo: You don’t know Dutt’s other story? What Fraser said about me?

Purani: No.

Sri Aurobindo: Fraser, after seeing me in jail, said to Dutt, “I have seen him. He has the eyes of a madman.” Dutt replied, “No, he has the eyes of a Karmayogi.” (Laughter)

Nirodbaran: Dutt wanted to write to Mother, but it seems he has a false idea that Mother has told him not to write anything.

Sri Aurobindo: Mother told him it was not necessary to write for permission of darshan for his wife.

Nirodbaran: Yes, they told him so.

Satyendra: Now he will tell all sorts of stories about Pondicherry. (Laughter) Nobody will contradict him.

Nirodbaran: T may now say, “Dutt is sentimental.”

Sri Aurobindo: And he may also say, “Why are all these people going to Aurobindo Ghose?” T is very childlike in some ways.

Purani: He will get another shock.

Sri Aurobindo: And will say that the world is getting sentimental.

Evening

Dr. Becharlal: There is a superstition that by looking at the moon one goes mad. Is there any truth here?

Sri Aurobindo: Ramachandra says that. According to him Premshankar went mad by concentrating on the moon. Poets are said to be influenced by the moon, but, I suppose, poets are mad people anyway.

Dr. Becharlal: I personally get much peace by looking at the moon.

Nirodbaran: But do you have a fear of going mad? (Laughter)

Sri Aurobindo: If you simply look without concentrating on it, it is all right! (Laughter)

Purani: In a journal K gives an explanation for the earthquake in Turkey. He says that it is due to the war-fever in Europe.

Sri Aurobindo: How? What has Turkey got to do with the war-fever?

Purani: His argument is queer. He says, “When the stomach is upset, the head aches; when the hand steals, the back gets a beating.”

Sri Aurobindo: That doesn’t always hold. The head may ache without any stomach upset or the hand may indulge in stealing without the back getting beaten.

Purani: In his view the question is whether the moral law is partially active or absolutely active. Is there any room for accident or chance?

Sri Aurobindo: Why take for granted that these are the sole alternatives? There may be so many other factors.

Purani: He speaks of fate.

Sri Aurobindo: There may be things like that.

Purani: Gandhi’s explanation of the Bihar earthquake is similar. He said it was due to the sins of the people.

Sri Aurobindo: That at least is more reasonable than K’s idea. The sins are Indian and the earthquake is Indian. But why-should the war-fever in Europe make Turkey have an earthquake? I don’t understand, in any case, why people always associate outer events with morality and interpret them in terms of sin and punishment. It is a question I have raised in The Life Divine. If, for instance, a man gets knocked on the head by some accident, why bring in the question of morality and say that it must be due to his sin or Karma? And what have the peasants dying in Anatolia by earthquake got to do with the sins of people arming and fighting in Europe? The disaster is due simply to the movement of Nature’s forces.

Purani: K says it is a question of faith, not intellectual explanation.

Sri Aurobindo: Then why argue about it and give reasons? We might as well say that S is suffering because of the sins of mankind. According to the Hindu Shastras, four generations suffer for the sins of the father.

Satyendra: That is hereditary syphilis. (Laughter)

Sri Aurobindo: And according to the Mahabharata, the king is responsible for the sins of his subjects. In that case, Mustapha Kemal would be responsible for the earthquake because he abolished the Caliph, religion, etc. If the headache is due to the stomach, what about Gandhi’s blood-pressure? Is it due to the stomach also? It would be more correct to say that it was due to the sins of Jinnah. (Laughter)

Satyendra: Moral law is not the creator and upholder of creation.

Sri Aurobindo: No, prior to man there was no moral law. In the material or vital world, moral law doesn’t exist. It comes in with man, and at a certain stage of his development it is useful. Even then, it is a social necessity, because without some kind of moral law society can’t exist. But to say that the world is regulated by moral law is to deny the facts of existence. That is absurd. There are two ways: one can either go beyond moral law as we seek to do by spirituality or one can uphold moral law as an ideal to be realised. This is understandable. If there is a moral legislator of the world, why does he give the same punishment for different sins?

Purani: K says man ought to learn lessons from these things. Vinoba Bhave maintains that one must even starve to death.

Sri Aurobindo: For nothing?

Purani: For non-violence, Ahimsa.

Sri Aurobindo: Perhaps that’s nothing. (Laughter) Even then it won’t solve the problem, for you will be killing so many germs in your body by starvation.

Purani: He says one has the right to take one’s own life.

Sri Aurobindo: That is questionable. You have no right to take the life that has been given to you for a particular purpose.