Nirodbaran
Talks with Sri Aurobindo
Volume 1
10 December 1938 – 14 January 1941
23 May 1940
Sri Aurobindo: The German generals say that they are still not in contact with the main body of the French troops. Where are the troops? What are they doing?
Satyendra: They may come in at the end.
Purani: The British Government has taken very strong measures.
Nirodbaran: They say it has turned Socialist and Communist.
Purani: This is due to the Labour influence, probably.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. From individual liberty to totalitarian Socialism must be a great change, because it is against the grain of the British. Their whole history is a fight for individual liberty. In the last war also, they took such steps but they went back to their natural condition.
Satyendra: Lindbergh says that countries at war are bound to be dictatorial at one time or another. So he is against America joining in.
Sri Aurobindo: That is all very well, but Hitler’s next attack will be on America.
Nirodbaran: The Allies don’t seem to be able to resist the German advance anywhere.
Purani: It was the same in the last war. About two years afterwards they recovered their position.
Sri Aurobindo: Not so long. It was at the battle of the Marne that the tide turned. At the beginning the English were running away before the German attack. There used to be wonderful stories by the correspondents. One war correspondent wrote that when the British army was running away, Sir John French was looking on and coolly smoking a cigarette. Then suddenly he started the counterattack and the Germans were repulsed. What actually happened was that the German commander had outrun his support. Somebody saw this and the Allies, turning the flank, drove the Germans towards the Marne where the battle took place. The German commander had found the pursuit so attractive that he had forgotten about his over-advanced position.
Satyendra: The war will continue till 1942, according to astrology.
Sri Aurobindo: That is the prophecy by the Theosophists. According to astrology, there is to be some set-back for Hitler in May. There is no sign of it yet.
Nirodbaran: Still eight days to go. If they take Narvik, then …
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, then we can begin to think that the Allies will win. They want to take Narvik without the loss of a single man!
Nirodbaran: But they have again changed their position against the Germans, it is said. What does it mean?
Sri Aurobindo: Obviously it means retreat. They want to fight non-violently like Gandhi – without killing a single man to capture Narvik.
Satyendra: When Vidyarthi was murdered by a Muslim, Gandhi said that he would have considered it a great fortune if he could himself have given his life.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, he would have expressed his love and gratitude to Vidyarthi for having given him such an opportunity. He would have said, “My dear fellow, how good you are to give me a chance to get murdered.”
Evening
Sri Aurobindo (addressing Purani): The Ashram has been declared a nest of pro-Nazis and pro-Communists by your friend the consul. He says he can even produce documents.
Nirodbaran: Schomberg?
Purani: Yes.
Nirodbaran: A nice friend you have.
Purani: He is quite capable of this. I haven’t seen him for a long time. Most probably the talk in the Ashram has reached his ears.
Sri Aurobindo: That undoubtedly. But if he has any written proof it will be serious. If some people have written from here to their friends and the letters have been intercepted and sent to him, he will have documents.
Purani: Has the matter gone to the French Government?
Sri Aurobindo: No, not yet. But he must have sent his report to the British authorities. And they can be nasty, especially if they go down in the war. They may write to the French Governor who then won’t be able to defend us and, next, to the Minister of Colonies. The movement against the Ashram is growing, some reliable friends have told us. Of course, we will try to counteract it but I don’t see how it can be done. The danger is not only to the Allies but to us also. (Looking at Nirodbaran) I hear that H’s place is a club for these discussions. Y and K go there, I am told.
Nirodbaran: I don’t know but it is quite possible. The other day H and Y were present when I repeated what you had said – and H agreed.
Sri Aurobindo: Then he shouldn’t allow these talks.
Nirodbaran: Y, I think, is still unconvinced. He says he doesn’t want Hitler to come to India but he does want him to win. It is difficult to rid him of his absurd idea.
Sri Aurobindo: Hitler will act according to what Y wants or doesn’t want? It is a very simple thing to see that Hitler wants world-domination and his next move will be towards India. But if Y goes on with such talk, evidently he doesn’t care whether the Ashram should continue to exist.
Purani: D also has such ideas and finds it difficult to dislodge them.
Sri Aurobindo: You reported the Mother as saying something to Nolini. What was it?
Purani: She said that if India were to get her freedom now, it would be catastrophic for her.
Sri Aurobindo: The Mother didn’t exactly say that. When Nolini said that it was because of the rancour against the British that people were talking in Hitler’s favour, the Mother remarked that freedom at present would be dangerous to India, because India would play into the hands of Stalin. I am perfectly sure that if the Socialists and Communists don’t get their way, they will call in Russia. SB may say Stalin is almost Asiatic.
Purani: D says, “Let the Hindus and Muslims fight it out and see what happens. Some result will come.”
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. The Muslims will call in somebody and the Socialists somebody else. The Muslims may call in Mussolini because he proclaims himself defender of Islam. But he has removed half the Arabs from Tripoli and replaced them by Italians. India must get into the habit of freedom for about twenty or thirty years and then prepare for independence. To my mind the best thing is to have Dominion Status at present and then later on get ready for complete independence. India is a poor country, has no army, can’t afford to have modern armaments. So long as she has no defence, she has to rely on others, unless the Socialists have a Kemal Pasha up their sleeves or a diplomat like Ismet Pasha who kept the enemy off till the country was prepared. Very difficult work. SB won’t be able to do that.
Purani: One Kemal Pasha won’t do for India. There must be at least ten. If the Hindus and Muslims go on fighting with each other, other powers are sure to come in and a fresh subjugation is inevitable.
Sri Aurobindo: Certainly. That is from the national point of view. Spiritually Stalin and Hitler will never tolerate any kind of work like ours. Spirituality and liberty of conscience are impossible in their regime. The Socialists or perhaps the Communists may think that Stalin will give some autonomy as in Georgia or the Ukraine – but it is all humbug. Even in the Ukraine, their President was shot because he was too pro-Ukraine.
I have been reading that book of astrology. But there is not much of astrology there. It is a political and psychological treatment of persons and events, astrology coming in as a third factor only, where the stars regulate things. The author says that Hitler is playing into the hands of the army. The people will rise in revolt and kill him. His prophecies are obviously wrong. He says Chamberlain will bring in the reign of peace. Churchill won’t be the Prime Minister. It is more or less propaganda for Chamberlain.
Nirodbaran: R is also speaking in favour of the Germans. When Bansidhar told him the Mother did not wish that we should take sides with Hitler, he replied, “Sri Aurobindo says different things to different persons as Sri Krishna did to Arjuna, Vidura, etc. You don’t know.”
Sri Aurobindo: R knows?