Nirodbaran
Talks with Sri Aurobindo
Volume 1
10 December 1938 – 14 January 1941
12 October 1940
The Czech national committee of Bombay published a pamphlet on the oppressive rules instituted by Germany in Czechoslovakia against university education. The Mother brought a copy of it to Sri Aurobindo in the morning.
Sri Aurobindo (after breakfast): Those who think that Hitler’s rule in India won’t make much difference from the British, can read it. Then they will see why I support the British. But this is only one example of their oppression, directed only against the university.
Purani: I have read it. Jallianwalla Bagh seems only a small incident by its side and that was committed by a single man who was afterwards compelled to retire from his office.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, that was an instance of a military commander doing something on his own authority, while here it is a regime. Wherever Hitler goes, he starts that regime.
Nirodbaran: If he could be so brutal with his own white race, what will be the fate of the coloured races?
Sri Aurobindo: Quite so. But in Poland it is still more severe.
Nirodbaran: Why?
Sri Aurobindo: Because he knows the Polish people are more resistant and won’t be subjugated. At one time he thought of exterminating the Poles wholesale.
Purani: The Polish lady who wrote to Ravindra has come back from Europe. She says she has first-hand knowledge of the condition in Poland – about what Germany has done. She prays to you for Poland’s amelioration.
Sri Aurobindo: Poland’s amelioration is not possible unless Hitler undergoes deterioration.
Purani: Hitler’s entry into Romania seems to be his first step towards the Balkans.
Sri Aurobindo: It is, like all his moves, a slow penetration from which he may go to Turkey, Egypt and Asia. What is wonderful is Stalin’s attitude. He is quite silent.
Nirodbaran: Any secret pact?
Sri Aurobindo: Even if there were, how long would Hitler respect it if he won? Then Russia would have either to resist or be effaced. Stalin is counting on the exhaustion of the Axis and England and France. Now if Hitler takes Turkey and Egypt and Africa, that will mean practically England’s defeat. Then what can Russia do? Hitler has a sufficient army to fight on two fronts while England can hardly spare her troops.
Purani: Japan is trying to be original: she says she wants peace with America. The three-Power pact is not against America! (Laughter)
Sri Aurobindo: I don’t see how Japan can fight England and America when all her war supplies come from them. That is also why Spain can’t join Germany.
Purani: N.R. Sarkar has given a lecture in Madura against non-violence. He says non-violence can’t prevent invasion by another power.
Sri Aurobindo: That is my opinion too. I don’t see how Satyagraha can prevent it, or does Gandhi expect that Hitler won’t come to India? Hasn’t he read anything about Poland?
Purani: He must have. This Polish lady who was there must have told him. Gandhi says he does not know himself what would be the exact method. He waits for inspiration at the last moment as in all his other cases. He also says that generals don’t know their moves beforehand. They wait for inspiration calmly and quietly. In violence one can’t be quiet. Gandhi is disturbed by the incidents, etc.
Sri Aurobindo: Generals get excited by violence? If so, they could never win battles. Gandhi doesn’t seem to know much about human psychology. If Napoleon and Marlborough had got excited they could never have been successful.
Satyendra: Gandhi doesn’t say he can stop an invasion but he says that non-violent non-cooperation can make it impossible for one to rule.
Sri Aurobindo: That is another matter.
Satyendra: If done rightly it can melt other people’s hearts as with Prahlad, he says.
Sri Aurobindo: Prahlad is all right, but a nation of Prahlads doesn’t exist. (Laughter)
Satyendra: He actually believes that Narsimha will come down.
Sri Aurobindo (laughing): To tear the stomach out of the other fellow?
Satyendra (laughing): Yes.
Sri Aurobindo: But at one time he thought of stopping an Afghan invasion by Charkha.
Satyendra: In my opinion he should have kept aloof after that Poona affair.
Sri Aurobindo: Quite so. Gandhi’s originality lies in bringing Ahimsa into politics. Otherwise non-cooperation is nothing new.
Evening
Nirodbaran: Tagore is having a relapse again and passing restless nights.
Sri Aurobindo: This time it is difficult to escape, it seems, in spite of Gandhi’s wish.
Nirodbaran: I read the Czech pamphlet.
Sri Aurobindo: How did you find it?
Nirodbaran: Terrible!
Sri Aurobindo: Would you like India to have that?
Nirodbaran: O Lord, no! I was thinking the Jallianwalla Bagh affair was mild beside this.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, I was wondering why they made so much noise about it.
Dr. Rao had come in the morning. Nirodbaran asked him: “What does Madras think of Hitler? It seems it is anti-British.’’ Rao said plenty of people were much surprised by Sri Aurobindo’s contribution and were wondering how it was possible for Sri Aurobindo, who once had been so anti-British, to do such a thing. But there were others who supported Sri Aurobindo. Then Sri Aurobindo explained to Rao at great length all the points and sides of the question, most of which he had mentioned in the letter. We saw that he repeated all of them deliberately, so that Rao might speak of them to others if the occasion arose. What is not included in the letter is given below.
Sri Aurobindo: In Africa, the Germans have already exterminated one race. Now in France they are creating a distinction between white and coloured races which didn’t exist before. It is only the British navy that stands against Hitler’s world domination.
Dr. Rao: I don’t believe that he can dominate the world.
Sri Aurobindo: Do you know that he is trying to get a foothold in South America and doing extensive propaganda there? If he gets a hold there, he can lead an attack against the U.S.A. He is practically master of Europe. If after the collapse of France he had invaded England, by now he would have been in Asia. Now another force has been set up against him. Still the danger has not passed. He has a fifty percent chance of success. It is a question of balance of forces. Up to the time of the collapse of France he was extraordinarily successful because he sided with the Asuric Power behind him from whom he received remarkably correct messages. He is a mystic, only a mystic of the wrong kind. He goes into solitude for his messages and waits till they come.
Dr. Rao: But how long can he keep these races in subjection? They will rise in revolt one day.
Sri Aurobindo: What about Poland and Czechoslovakia? They are two of the most heroic nations in the world and yet what can they do? Besides, Hitler doesn’t want to annex all these countries under direct German rule. He wants to make them protectorates under his gauleiters, all schools, institutions, industries serving German interests and having its culture.
Dr. Rao: What is the difference between communism and Nazism?
Sri Aurobindo: Communism is the proletariat State – no dictatorship, though Stalin is a dictator but he doesn’t call himself that. Otherwise they are the same.
Dr. Rao: The trouble in India is that the British Government has not kept a single promise so far. So nobody trusts it.
Sri Aurobindo: The fact is that the British don’t trust India to help them if she is given Dominion Status. Otherwise they would have given it.
Dr. Rao: I don’t think India will refuse to help if we get something in return.
Sri Aurobindo: You think so? I am not sure. What do you think of the left-wingers, the communists, Subhas Bose, for instance? And it is not true that they have given nothing. It is the British character to go by stages. Whenever their self-interest is at stake they come to a compromise. You have to take account of things as they are. They gave provincial autonomy and didn’t exercise any veto power. It is the Congress that spoiled everything by resigning. If without resigning they had put pressure on the Centre they would have got by now what they want. It is for two reasons I support the British in this war: first in India’s own interest and secondly for humanity’s sake, and the reasons I have given are external reasons; there are spiritual reasons too. You know that no propaganda of any kind is allowed by the Nazis. In that case how are you going to awaken the national sentiment?
Dr. Rao: Even if Hitler wins, there is Japan who will resist him in the East.
Sri Aurobindo: But is Japan powerful enough to do that? It is true that Japan wants to drive out all Europeans from Asia. She can have enough power for that only if she is master of the Far East including China.
Dr. Rao: People say that the British won’t allow the loss of India. If it comes to that, they will make peace. (Laughter)
Sri Aurobindo: They said also that Britain wouldn’t fight after the collapse of France.
Purani: But why should Hitler make such a peace if he finds that he has chances of success? The trouble with us is that we want to cut off our nose to spite another’s face.
Sri Aurobindo: No, we call in a third party to cut off our nose to spite the other’s face. (Laughter) India has always done that.
Dr. Rao: If Hitler is defeated and they make another treaty of Versailles, there will be trouble again.
Sri Aurobindo: But if they don’t do that there will be another war in twenty years’ time. Something has to be done.
Purani: The best thing would be to march into Germany as they wanted to do in the last war.
Dr. Rao: People in Madras regard Italy as no more considerate than Germany.
Purani: For that reason Egypt has not declared war, they say.
Sri Aurobindo: No, it is said that the British are holding her back. But do you know that the Italians have exterminated half the native people in Libya? Whatever independence England has given the Egyptians, they will lose if Italy comes there. Are they so foolish as not to know that? The Arabs know the Italians very well. Hence they are completely supporting Britain though they were fighting with her before.