Nirodbaran

Talks with Sri Aurobindo

Volume 1

10 December 1938 – 14 January 1941

17 October 1940

Purani: Gandhi gave a long introduction about Vinoba, saying he is the most fitted and ideal non-violent worker, one who has understood and practised his non-violence in the true spirit. Vinoba declares that non-violence will bring about a revolution in the country.

Sri Aurobindo: Why speeches then?

Purani: They will be a preparation for successful non-cooperation. He also says the Charkha will bring contentment to people and to the peasants by making them self-supporting.

Sri Aurobindo: Then how can there be a revolution? Discontent brings about a revolution.

Purani: He has also read Arabic in order to understand and make common ties and sympathies with the Muslims. He has written a book making the Charkha the central subject, taking spinning, cotton, etc. as various items, and written about the history, geography and science of it.

Sri Aurobindo: Why the Charkha then? One can write as well on nails! That is the kind of intelligence which looks at things from one aspect only – a one-eyed intelligence can’t take a complete view of a subject.

Purani: Declaring Britain’s war-aims, Churchill has said that they are not fighting for the status quo nor for the old order of things. More than that it is not possible to say.

Satyendra: He says that the only war aim now is to win the war.

Sri Aurobindo: Quite so. If he starts declaring the war aims, a quarrel will start at once and those who are supporting Britain will object. For war aims don’t depend on Britain alone but on Europe too. With the co-operation and consent of all these other nations they have to be developed. Different people will prefer different orders. For instance, the Socialists in England will want Socialism, while no one in Europe will agree to that, not even anyone in America.

Nirodbaran: There is Satish Das Gupta in Bengal, another lieutenant of Gandhi.

Purani: His is more of a personal attachment to Gandhi.

Sri Aurobindo: Not because of Gandhi’s ideas?

Purani: Ideas are secondary; he is a lieutenant because of his attachment. The main thing is his personal attachment apart from any ideas.

Sri Aurobindo: Religious devotion?

Purani: Yes.

Satyendra: There are many people like that who are attached to Gandhiji because of his personal charm, his personality, not because of any idea or principle he stands for. Patel, for instance.

Sri Aurobindo: Has none gone for his ideas?

Satyendra: I don’t think so. It is as things are here. There are not many people here who have come for your philosophy.

Sri Aurobindo: Why “not many”? Very few.

Satyendra: That was my tactfulness.

Sri Aurobindo: Nirod didn’t come for my philosophy!

Nirodbaran: No!

Satyendra: Amrita, for instance, says that whatever you say he will do. If politics, then politics.

Sri Aurobindo: There is only one man who has come for my philosophy – Veerabhadra! (Laughter)

Purani: Yes, he has his own idea about it and says it is just like Shankara’s.

Sri Aurobindo: Dilip used to shudder at the idea of the Supermind. Even the psychic used to appal him.

Nirodbaran: Though what he is aspiring for is this psychic attitude of Bhakti.

Sri Aurobindo: He thinks the psychic has no love and emotion. What he was afraid of was that his vital movements would be taken away.

Nirodbaran: Mahendra Sircar also came for your philosophy.

Purani: Adwaitanand, too. Of course, such people are very few.

Satyendra: Very few people have any clear idea about it.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes. I am not speaking of those who come for Yoga. What about Veerabhadra? Where is he now?

Purani: In the town. I suppose the Vaishya Sabha is putting him up.

Sri Aurobindo: He ought not to have any difficulty as he is a Brahmin.

Purani: Yes, a Brahmin in South India is honoured everywhere.

Sri Aurobindo: And he has many disciples here. If he had the gerua [the saffron robe] he would have still more advantage.

Nirodbaran: But in Bengal he would have a hard time.

Satyendra: Why?

Nirodbaran: In Bengal Sannyasis are not held in much esteem.

Sri Aurobindo: Bengal has Deshpande’s idea, I suppose. I remember when Deshpande returned from England some Sannyasis came to him. He drove them away, asking why able-bodied people should go about from door to door.

Satyendra: But in any other part of India a Sannyasi has no difficulty. Purnananda speaks very lovingly of a warm reception in Gujarat.

Nirodbaran: He says Bengali Sannyasis are not treated well in North India by North Indian Sannyasis. “As the Bengalis don’t treat us well, why should we treat them well?” they argue. There is himsa [jealousy] among Sadhus too!

Champaklal: Jain Sadhus beat each other!

Sri Aurobindo: That is not unusual, quite ancient. There are funny stories in old Buddhist books about Sannyasis. In some books the Sannyasis are described as drinking and shouting in the streets. Subramaniam Bharati told me that in old Jain books he had found instances of Brahmins killing each other in South India and eating cow’s meat! Nobody will believe it now.

Purani: No!

Sri Aurobindo: Brahmins eating meat goes as far back as the Ramayana. There is the story of Batapi, a Rakshasa, who along with his brother wanted to kill Brahmins. He turned himself into a sheep which was killed and eaten by a Brahmin. Then his brother came and chanted some mantra by which the sheep inside tore open the Brahmin’s stomach and came out. He tried to play the same trick on Agastya. But as soon as his brother chanted the mantra, Agastya chanted some other mantra and thus prevented the sheep from tearing open his stomach. (Laughter)

Then there is the story in Bhavabhuti where Vasishtha ate a whole sheep in front of his disciples. The disciples exclaimed, “That fellow is eating the whole sheep!”

Satyendra: They must have wondered at his digestive capacity.

Sri Aurobindo: No, it was not said in praise!

Nirodbaran: The digestive power must have deteriorated a lot among us since then!

Sri Aurobindo: Quite so!

Nirodbaran: Buddha couldn’t digest even some pieces of pork.

Purani: He was eighty! But it was not a sheep that Vashishtha ate; it was a cow, I think.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, yes, a calf, I remember now. I was surprised to find a Brahmin eating a cow!

Nirodbaran: Weren’t Brahmins eating cows at one time?

Sri Aurobindo: Oh yes, sacrificial cows.

Nirodbaran: It was the post-Buddhistic influence that stopped meat-eating.

Sri Aurobindo: No, it was Jainism. In Bengal where Buddhism was once very dominant they used to eat meat. It is remarkable how Jainism spread that influence throughout the whole of India. It was because of Jainism that Gujarat is vegetarian. But some carry this abstinence from meat as far back as the Veda. There is a Sloka which says that meat cannot be eaten and they make it “must not” be eaten.

At the end Purani showed us a famous sculpture of Durga from Bihar. Sri Aurobindo said that it was very lively; even the posture of Durga indicated that. Then jocularly he said that one must have a divine quality to balance oneself on a lion like that.