The Mother

Agenda

Volume 10

August 20, 1969

(The Vatican disciple has arrived in Pondicherry)

I saw PL.... There are two things, first a personal one, then a more general one. He said the last time he saw you, after leaving you he went to the Samadhi, and there he suddenly had an extremely sharp pain in the lower abdomen. But he said it was very strange because it didn't feel like an ordinary pain: it didn't stop him from walking about, but it remained centered there – a sharp pain.

As for me, I am afraid those people there may have cast a spell on him.

You think it's that?... I don't know; when he said that, I felt it was one of the lower “centers” that was touched by the Light.

(Mother shakes her head) And did that pain stay long?

I don't know, for maybe fifteen or twenty minutes.

And then gone.

It was after seeing you, while he was at the Samadhi.

I think those people are quite capable. of casting a spell.

Yes, but you being here, it shouldn't have the power to touch him.

Ah, no, it's not like that! It's done consciously against... not against him, but against what lie receives here. So it changes his personal sensation (they're very skilled at those things); to his personal sensation, the sense of Ananda, of... (it's not quite a “joy,” it's really the Ananda of the presence of the Force) is turned into pain. That they know how to do. For the very sensation.

Because it's well known that in a general way, when the Light touches the lower centers, sometimes it provokes this violent sensation.

Yes... But it didn't hurt him; I mean he felt in pain, but it didn't hurt him.

It didn't, it had no physical effect.

Yes, that's right.

You see, if there were nothing in his mental or vital or physical makeup to respond to those people's force, he wouldn't have felt any pain – but there's necessarily something. And that's what made him feel it as a pain, whereas it's not a true pain.

Certainly there is still something in him that can get afraid (that I saw), and its enough. It acts as a link.

Is he going back, or staying some more time?

He is staying for a few weeks.

Then I'll see him once more, because I'd like to try and do something.

The day before that incident, lie had a vision (I don't know if there's any connection). He was with me, we were walking together on a mountain road; I was holding his hand. Then, after some time, he felt tired; he said to me, “Oh, I am tired.” But I was holding his hand, and I told him, “Come.” We walked on in that mountain, then once again he said, “You are going too fast for me, I can't follow you.” Again I told him, “Come,” and pulled him along. Then we reached the top of that mountain, it was all in light, and there was a sort of precipice. And it seems I hurled him into the precipice- without any violence, any movement of passion: I simply flung him into the precipice. And he went down-he told me, “It wasn't a fall, it was rather a descent; I wasn't at all going to crash down at the bottom: I was just going down.” And he saw my eyes at the top. He felt no passion, no violence, nothing of that sort in me, but simply, quietly, I hurled him into the void.

It means his mind is affected.

Affected?

Yes, by them.

(long silence)

I'll see him one more time.

Shall I go on?

Yes, yes.

He told me he felt he was going to be excluded from the Vatican this year.

Oh!

He's had that sensation. He said, “They will do it as they usually do; they generally give you a promotion somewhere: they might, for instance, nominate me bishop of [such and such a country].” Then he would be driven out of the Vatican. But when something of that kind happens, you are put “under the Holy Office,” which means you cannot talk to anyone and are obliged to answer with yes or no. “If this situation comes,” asks PL., “what shall I do? Should I fight it out to assert my place at the Vatican, because they must give me the reasons for my exclusion” (he can openly challenge their intentions), “or should I accept, get caught tip in the meshes of a post such as that of bishop [of such and such a country], with, at the same time, a rather widespread sphere of action-should I accept that? Or what should I do in that case?” His sensation is that he is going to be excluded from the Vatican this year.

Officially, is it the Pope who does it, or the cardinals?

It's always on the cardinals' suggestion. It's not the Pope who does it, it's merely put to his signature.

No, but I mean...

No, no! I don't think the Pope has anything against P.L., but there's a small clique around him which manipulates things and imprisons him.

Yes, that's it, he is imprisoned.

Yes, PL. told me, “He is imprisoned.”

What's his post at the Vatican?

He is on the tribunal that rules on all divorce cases and so on. It's called the “Rota,” and it's the highest ecclesiastical tribunal.

And what is he there?

I think there are six judges, and he is one of them.

It's better he doesn't stay there.

It's better?... Should he accept a “Promotion” elsewhere?

Yes. It doesn't matter.

Are those people paid?

Yes. They're playing all kinds of nasty tricks on him, by paying him less, in fact; they play all kinds of dirty tricks to try and drive him away.

It's better he goes.

Should he go on his own authority, or wait for the time to come?

No, let him wait.

(silence)

That's the first lesson one must learn in order to do the true work: not to have any self-regard. Things must roll off you without affecting you. That's VERY IMPORTANT.

(silence)

Are bishops free to do what they like? I mean, can they travel?

Yes, yes.

They can?

Yes, they have great independence. Of course, they must refer all religious decisions, but otherwise they are very free.

In their private lives.

Yes.

If they do that, it will be good.

He just has to stay still.

Is there something else?

Yes, he has had a vision of a much more general order. All of a sudden he had the sensation that the Pope was dead. It was the same atmosphere as at the time of Pius XII's death and John XXIII's death: “The Pope is dead.” Then all the cardinals met in a conclave closeted to elect a new Pope as usual. And they couldn't manage to elect a new Pope; time was passing, but they couldn't manage to elect a new Pope-the Pope was dead, but they couldn't elect one. Then, suddenly, on the Vatican fell a bomb – all the cardinals were crushed, the whole Vatican was crushed by that bomb. And all at once, he saw that bomb turn into a sort of golden sun, or golden ball, and out of all the Vatican's museums (which had been crushed-those places where there were Michelangelos and all those treasures), there came an army of rats!

(Mother laughs)

... Rats and “malformed” beasts, he told me. Out of all those treasures of the Vatican, there only came rats all over the place .... And at the same time, there was the sensation of those few hundred millions of faithful who were there, wondering, “What are we to do? What are we going to do?...”

It's interesting.

(silence)

Are the Popes always elected from among the cardinals?

Always, yes, from among the College of Cardinals.¹

(long silence)

There have already been two more Popes than what had been predicted.

Really?

The last two: this one and the preceding one.

We'll see.

¹ There were exceptions, as we shall see later (on 13 September).

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