Nirodbaran
Talks with Sri Aurobindo
Volume 1
10 December 1938 – 14 January 1941
29 January 1939
Sri Aurobindo (to Purani): Have you read the report of Hitler’s interview with Colonel Beck in the Sunday Times?
Purani: No, what was it about?
Satyendra: Shouting at each other?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. It is said that when Hitler begins to shout and his eyes become glassy, it means some disaster. But in this interview when he began shouting and his eyes got the glassy look, Beck began to shout louder. Hitler was much surprised at this unexpected response and toned himself down.
Satyendra: He seems to have met his match.
Sri Aurobindo (turning to Purani): You have seen X’s statement, I am sure. He seems to be a mere intellectual, with no grasp of realities. Others too talk impractical nonsense.
Nirodbaran: But X for one is very sincere and honest.
Purani: Many leaders are like that.
Sri Aurobindo: What is meant here by sincerity and honesty? Readiness to suffer for the cause and not accepting bribes? But that does not save everything. Even during our Swadeshi movement, although the leaders were egoistic and quarrelsome, they were honest and sincere. Our fight was over principles – for example, reform or revolution or, as somebody put it, colonial self-government or independence. We never fought for personal reasons, and yet do you know what Das said about criminals? He said that in his whole legal career he had not met worse types of criminals than in politics!
Nirodbaran: But if one really believes that the party is going to compromise with the enemy, isn’t one justified in fighting about it – especially if one knows that negotiations are going on?
Sri Aurobindo: What is there objectionable in negotiations? Every big party and even every country has to negotiate. The Germans before and during the last war were doing it. Negotiation does not mean acceptance of the enemy’s terms. There is no harm in seeing how far the other party or country will go in granting concessions, rights and privileges.
Purani: When Nehru visited Nahash Pasha in Egypt, the latter said that his Wafd Party had become demoralised after accepting office. And now they are defeated. He wondered how Congress Ministers had remained honest after coming into power. Nehru explained to him about the Parliamentary Board which serves as a check on the Ministers.
Sri Aurobindo: I was surprised to see the dissolution of the Wafd Party. I was wondering what it may have been due to. So this is the cause then? They ought to have turned out the king as Kemal did in Turkey. The present king is following the policy of his father. And instead of quarrelling among themselves they should have used their newly acquired power to build up their nation: first, by giving the people education and general training, second, by increasing the country’s wealth and, third, by building up the military machine.
Exactly the same thing should be done in India by the Congress Ministers.
Nirodbaran: What sort of education? Technical?
Sri Aurobindo: Technical, agricultural, economic. Without proper knowledge, how will India develop her industries and trade? India is such a vast country; her own people can consume a lot. External trade is not necessary at the beginning. Look at what the U.S.A. did. She first developed her internal trade to meet all the necessities of her own people and, when by that means she had increased her wealth, she began to develop her external trade. Our Government should have a plan for an economic survey of the provinces to see what products are necessary for consumption in India. But, of course, one must not neglect secondary education. You can’t have efficient people today without education. It serves to create a common interest and a basis of common understanding. But I don’t mean the present form of education. It is not at all suitable for building up a nation. It has to be radically changed. Indian boys are more intelligent than English boys but three-fourths of their talent and energy are wasted, whereas English boys use their gifts ten times more efficiently than Indian boys do.
Purani: Y has approached the merchants for donations to the Government. Owing to prohibition, there is a substantial loss of revenue. He told the merchants that if they didn’t donate, new taxes would have to be imposed.
Sri Aurobindo: It is better not to destroy the capitalists as the Socialists want. They are the source of a nation’s wealth. They should be encouraged to spend for the nation. Taxing is all right, but you must increase production and start new industries and raise the standard of living. Without that, if you increase the taxes, there will be a state of depression. Other nations can tax enormously because they produce on a grand scale.
Purani: Y is opening agricultural schools in villages and small industrial schools also – that is to say, carrying out the Wardha Scheme.
Sri Aurobindo: It is a pity to give up all that work merely to fight the idea of Federation. You can fight it even after it has been established – you can fight the Federal Government. One has first to utilise what one has obtained and on that basis work out the rest. If the British Government finds that Federation is properly worked out, it may not object to giving more. It expected a crowd of demagogues shouting together in the Assembly, not people capable of governing. But if Socialism came, it might frighten the British.
Purani: The present British Governor of Bombay seems sympathetic to his Cabinet.
Sri Aurobindo: The English people, except for a few autocrats like Curzon, have a constitutional temperament. They will violently oppose their being kicked out of the country but they won’t object to being slowly shouldered out as in the Dominions. The Dominions are practically independent. The British Government will be quite content if it can get India’s help in case of war with other nations, but these declarations of anti-imperialistic policy and “No compromise”, etc., etc. will tend to stiffen its attitude. What is the use of declaring your policy from the beginning? Even as regards the States, one must not be too exacting in one’s demands. The Government won’t tolerate the idea of reducing them to mere figureheads from the very beginning.