Nirodbaran
Talks with Sri Aurobindo
Volume 1
10 December 1938 – 14 January 1941
10 July 1940
Purani: The Hindu says that Mittelhauser has resigned.
Sri Aurobindo: Resigned? He was relieved, they said.
Purani: No, the paper says he has resigned and that many French officers have joined the British.
Nirodbaran: Yes, mainly those of a high rank. There seems to be unrest in Syria. The Syrians want independence and are being supported by Turkey and Iraq.
Sri Aurobindo: Syria is a mandated territory like Iraq.
Nirodbaran: What exactly is a “mandated territory”?
Sri Aurobindo: It means that the French hold the country in trust and when the people are fit they will be given independence. The French have been going back and forth for some time in this matter – they have been vacillating.
Purani: De Gaulle is bitter because the British have destroyed the French fleet. He says they cannot claim it as a naval success as there was really no fight and that every Frenchman is in grief and pain over the tragic episode.
Gandhi has appealed to Britain to accept the Working Committee’s resolution.
Nirodbaran: Yes, it seems to be a resolution brought by C.R. It was carried by a majority against Gandhi’s. Gandhi has given a statement to explain the background of the resolution. C.R. gave a bit of the hard truth to Gandhi saying that Gandhi has become obsessed with the idea of Ahimsa by constantly brooding over it. Gandhi says, “He went on to say that my vision is blurred.”
Sri Aurobindo (smiling): He said that?
Nirodbaran: Yes, Gandhi pays a tribute to C.R. for the patience and skill by which he carried the members with him. As an individual, he has placed his services at England’s disposal, he says.
Sri Aurobindo: Spirit of non-violence?
Nirodbaran: Yes. But the demand of complete independence remains.
Sri Aurobindo: That is difficult for the British to accept.
Nirodbaran: And the National Government will include defence. Will the Viceroy give it?
Sri Aurobindo: It depends on how they work it out. But as for defence and war, they are all inexperienced. In England a minister can carry on with the help of the Civil Service, the Admiralty, etc.
Jinnah is already speaking against the National Government. He wants Pakistan. I suppose that if a Muslim majority is granted, he will accept such a government.
Purani: In Pondicherry the officials are laughing over Gandhi’s appeal of non-violence to the British. Of course it is beyond their conception. They are saying, “Is he mad?” (Laughter)
Satyendra: But by non-violence he does not mean what the officials have done in France.
Sri Aurobindo: What then?
Satyendra: He says the British should refuse to carry out Hitler’s orders, not cooperate. They may be killed for that. Still.
Sri Aurobindo (laughing): Still?
Purani: Even the Congress regime has adopted the police system.
Sri Aurobindo: I don’t see how non-violence can work in the administration.
Satyendra: The Americans are praising Churchill, comparing him to Pitt.
Nirodbaran: I wonder what Chamberlain would have done if he had been the Premier.
Sri Aurobindo: He would have committed twenty mistakes.
Satyendra: He may also be compared in the future to somebody and given praise.
Sri Aurobindo: Praise in the sense that nobody has ever committed so many mistakes? (Laughter)
Purani: No, people may say he worked for peace and reconciliation. During the Munich Agreement they were going to name streets after him.
Sri Aurobindo: Chamberlain Street and Umbrella Square? (Laughter) Peace? Yes, it was meant to be peace for our time, but a short peace. This is how people like Pétain and Chamberlain, who make mistakes, get a following.
Purani: The Italian navy is withdrawing under a smoke screen from contact with the British navy.
Sri Aurobindo (laughing): Yes, the meeting with the British navy was an unexpected surprise for them. If the British can destroy the Italian navy, then it will be a big gain in their favour.
Satyendra: On land too, the Italians are not shining. Perhaps Hitler will employ them to guard the French territories?
Purani: If he can trust them.
Sri Aurobindo: Trust? Hitler can drive them out and conquer Italy at any time.
Nirodbaran: Nolini, in his translation of a chapter of The Life Divine, is finding some difficulty about the word “defy” in “defy matter”. He has used the word abajna.
Sri Aurobindo: Abajna implies “contempt” which isn’t the case here. It should be something like “challenge”.
Nirodbaran: But we couldn’t find the Bengali for “challenge”, either. Asvikar, amanya, agrahya, etc. – none gives the sense of “defy”.
Purani: Bengal doesn’t challenge anybody, so no word exists for it. (Laughter)
Nirodbaran: Bose’s talk doesn’t do anything but challenge.
Sri Aurobindo: Perhaps you could say in Bose’s language: “Give an ultimatum to matter”! But has even “ultimatum” any equivalent in Bengali?
Evening
Sri Aurobindo (after some stray talk had been going on): By the way, the Government here has given up the 14th July celebration. Since Pétain has become a dictator there is no meaning in that occasion and, for that matter, the whole of France is now one big Bastille. Pétain has killed the Revolution, the Revolution which had required three more revolutions to make it firm and established.
Satyendra: There is no hope of any revolution now.
Sri Aurobindo: So long as Germany doesn’t leave, no.
Purani: Now the motto is: “Work, Family and Fatherland” – most mundane and stupid. It doesn’t evoke any inner feeling at all, while “Liberty, Equality and Fraternity” acts like a mantra.
Satyendra: Not stupid but mundane, as you say.
Sri Aurobindo: Work and Family will always be there.
Purani: Yes, so there is nothing new in it.
Sri Aurobindo: What does Counouma say about this Government?
Purani: He is not here now. But he is against it. He said, “Armistice may be all right, but if they try to destroy the Republic, I will enlist myself. I don’t know what Dr. André and others think about it. They still support Pétain in his peace move and say, ‘People on the spot know better than others’, and blame the British for their insufficient help.”
Sri Aurobindo: If people on the spot know better, it means Pétain and his minority know better than others. One may also suggest perhaps that Pétain is working to give bread to the people. (After a while) If David were to become a dictator of Pondicherry and say that he would give bread, would he know better because he would be a man on the spot?
As for the inadequate help of the British, you can blame Chamberlain for their late conscription. But instead of trained soldiers whom they could have sent if they had started conscription earlier, they sent whatever army they had and could muster. And if they had adopted conscription earlier, the Labour Party would have made a row. It is no use blaming the British people for that.
Purani: They blame Chamberlain’s Munich peace policy for all this and say England has directed the French foreign policy so far.
Sri Aurobindo: But all the Rightists who are now against it supported the Munich policy at that time.
Satyendra: De Gaulle doesn’t accuse the English of destroying the French fleet. He only asks that it not be claimed a naval success.
Sri Aurobindo: One man voted against the Munich policy in the Senate. His name seems familiar. (Turning to Purani) Do you remember there was somebody with the same name in Italy who was shot at by Mussolini’s mistress?
Purani: Yes, I remember.
Sri Aurobindo: Is he the same man or does he perhaps belong to the same family?