Nirodbaran

Talks with Sri Aurobindo

Volume 1

10 December 1938 – 14 January 1941

7 October 1940

Purani: Gandhi has made a long statement about his interview with the Viceroy. He says that the Viceroy was very patient, very courteous but unbending. Gandhi discussed all the problems with him and he listened to everything patiently as no Viceroy had done before. But he didn’t go into any of the arguments.

Sri Aurobindo: Only listened?

Purani: He says there was a cold reserve about the Viceroy which couldn’t be penetrated. From his answers it could be seen that they were all prepared beforehand and that he had made his decisions already and nothing could shake him. “And that is what is meant by a steel frame, I suppose,” he says.

Sri Aurobindo: To frame him?

Purani: So Gandhi departed, but as a personal friend.

Sri Aurobindo: And he saw Jonah before going, didn’t he? (Purani apparently didn’t know what “Jonah” referred to.) Jonah is the turtle that was saved by the Viceroy from the mouth of a fish and put into a pond. Jonah is a Biblical name. You don’t know the story of Jonah?

Purani: No.

Sri Aurobindo: Jonah was a saint swallowed by a whale and he remained in its stomach for about three days, after which he was rescued. So it was quite an apposite name. Gandhi even cooed to Jonah. (Laughter)

Purani: Gandhi complains that the Viceroy didn’t say anything in reply to all his questions and problems.

Sri Aurobindo: What could he say? It is very plain why he didn’t. First of all, the British don’t want to concede the demand for independence. What they are willing to give is Dominion Status after the war and they expect that after that India will settle down into a common relationship with the Empire. But just now a national government would virtually mean Dominion Status, with the Viceroy acting only as a constitutional head.

Nobody knows what the Congress will do after they get that power. They may be occupied only with India’s defence and give Britain only such help as they can spare. And if things go wrong with the British they may even make a separate peace leaving the British in the lurch. There are left-wingers, socialists and communists whom Congress won’t be able to bring to their side; neither will they dare to offend them, and if their influence is sufficiently strong the Congress may stand against the British. So it is quite natural for the British not to part with power just now. As it is also natural for us to make our claims. But since we have not enough strength to back us we have to see if there is any common meeting-ground with the Government. If there is, a compromise with the Government is the only practical step. There was such an opportunity but the Congress spoiled it. Now either you have to accept what you can get or I don’t know what is going to happen.

Of course if we had the strength and power to make a revolution and get what we want, it would be a different matter. Amery and others did offer Dominion Status at one time. Now they have altered their stand because of the temper of the people. These politicians have some fixed ideas and they always go by them. Politicians and statesmen have to take account of situations and act as demanded by them. They must have insight.

Purani: Even now if we could make common cause and demand things, they would be compelled.

Nirodbaran. But it is because of the British divide-and-rule policy that we can’t unite.

Sri Aurobindo: Nonsense! Was there unity in India before the British rule?

Nirodbaran: But now since our national consciousness is more developed, there is more chance of unity if the British don’t bolster up Jinnah and his Muslim claims.

Sri Aurobindo: Does Jinnah want unity? His very character shows what he wants. What he wants is independence for Muslims and, if possible, rule over India. That is the old spirit. But why is it expected that Muslims will be so accommodating? Everywhere minorities are claiming their rights. Of course there may be some Muslims who are different, more nationalistic in outlook. Even Azad has his own terms; only he sees Indian unity first and will settle those terms afterwards.

Nirodbaran: C.R. seems to be sure of British victory. He says Britain won’t lose India to Germany.

Sri Aurobindo: Lose to whom else? Against Germany there is one advantage: the British navy is supreme. What Germany intends is a long-term blockade of England and thus to exhaust her. But to do that she must have Mediterranean supremacy. If she gets that and can also occupy Africa, then she will have endless resources at her disposal. Germany bungled by treating conquered people like slaves and not making use of her opportunity.

Purani: In these air raids the British have shown themselves more than equal to the Nazis.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes. The Nazis have more enthusiasm and dash. But the British individual is more awake and has more initiative and brain-power.

Purani: Some military correspondent writes that Britain could start an offensive and invade Germany through the Adriatic.

Sri Aurobindo: They are looking far ahead. But where will they land their troops? Yugoslavia? That means violating Balkan independence. Rather, with their troops in Palestine they could take Syria and then, with Turkey siding with them, proceed towards Germany. That would be much easier than going through the Adriatic. The Adriatic is far more risky and difficult, for the Italians guard the coast. Turkey will side with the British if the British are powerful enough.

Rameshwar is bringing out a booklet containing Sri Aurobindo’s writings on Bankim, Tilak, Dayanand and Romesh Dutt. He has asked if Romesh Dutt should not be put after Bankim. Nolini asks why Romesh Dutt should come after Bankim.

Sri Aurobindo: I don’t know. I don’t know why he should be there at all. (Laughter)