Nirodbaran

Talks with Sri Aurobindo

Volume 1

10 December 1938 – 14 January 1941

19 October 1940

News of Vinoba’s arrest has been contradicted on today’s radio.

Sri Aurobindo (to Purani): Has it been a great disappointment to you? (Laughter)

A number of visitors came from Gujarat by a special train – on a pilgrimage. Some were known or related to Satyendra. Sri Aurobindo inquired as to who they were. Purani answered that some were Satyendra’s relatives.

Satyendra: They recognised me at once by my nose. Our family has this characteristic nose. (Laughter)

Purani: He says that in the delineation of the gods he finds such noses!

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, but Nandalal is making them short and crooked now.

Gurusaday Dutt is on a tour of South India promoting his Vratachari folk-dance movement and is expected here as Anilbaran’s guest.

Purani: Anilbaran wants to know your opinion about Dutt’s movement.

Sri Aurobindo: I have no opinion (Laughter) – as I don’t know what it is.

Purani: He asks whether you consider the movement good.

Sri Aurobindo: Any movement could be good.

Purani: His books have been sent to you, it seems. Have you seen them?

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, they have been sent but I have not read them.

Purani: It seems he wants to do social service, village uplift work through his Vratachari folk dances. According to him it is the lower castes in India that have preserved the real Indian civilisation. Even the Harijans …

Satyendra: Not even! It is the Harijans who are the real custodians of Indian culture.

Sri Aurobindo: All I can say is that the Pondicherry Harijans are cleaner than caste people. (Laughter) But is he also of the opinion that whatever is primitive and ancient is real culture and so must be revived?

Purani: Yes.

Sri Aurobindo: Then I can’t agree with him.

Nirodbaran: He claims also a spiritual value in his movement. He says it will help towards spiritual uplift too, which Anilbaran can’t swallow. There are five ideals he has set forth: knowledge, labour, unity …

Sri Aurobindo: Knowledge very good, unity better, and then?

Nirodbaran: Truth and joy.

Sri Aurobindo: Joy also? Ananda, Satyam …

Nirodbaran: Anyone who follows these in his life will have spiritual development.

Sri Aurobindo (laughing): Obviously! I suppose it is through the rhythm of the folk dance that all these will be achieved?

Purani: Yes.

Sri Aurobindo: He himself took part in a dance and his I.C.S. people thought he had gone mad! But I thought it was also a scout movement, not only folk dancing.

Purani: Yes, that is also part of it.

Nirodbaran: Anilbaran says there is this difference from the Gandhi movement, that it includes joy and beauty.

Sri Aurobindo: Why? Gandhi finds joy and beauty in suffering!

Nirodbaran: Dutt is very devoted to his wife’s memory, it seems. He always keeps one vacant seat by his side during his meal time. He has written a book on her too. It seems Dutt got inspiration from his wife in all these movements.

Satyendra: Many people are devoted like that. Dr. Chandulal, for instance. He lost his wife when young and did not marry again. He wrote a poem on her.

Sri Aurobindo: He can marry again and write another poem! (Laughter)

Satyendra: Sometimes in their devotion, external beauty of form doesn’t count. In the Leila-Majnun story, somebody asked Majnun what made him love Leila so much, since Leila had no beauty. He answered that one must have Majnun’s eyes to see her beauty. But I am afraid Majnun could not have done these Vratachari.

Sri Aurobindo: Not even if Leila started it? (Laughter) A modernised Leila? You must make some allowance for modernism!

Purani: One of the visitors is a retired D.S.P. It seems he was your student.

Sri Aurobindo: I see!

Purani: He says that after the war is over there will be a great economic strain all over the world. Whoever wins won’t make much difference to the other economically because both sides will be utterly exhausted. He also thinks that some other social order will come in.

Sri Aurobindo: A tremendous necessity of that sort will compel them to a new arrangement of society. It is Nature’s push that they have not taken any account of so far. They can’t go back to the old forms of government and state and society. If they do, there will be upheavals again. What they are calling a New Order will be forced on them by such a necessity. Hitler looks at it upside down. He wanted to make Germany self-sufficient and saw that it was not possible without making the world subservient to Germany. That means that self-sufficiency is not enough nowadays. Nobody can preserve himself by self-sufficiency alone. Unification becomes necessary. You see what Hitler’s unification is?

Purani: By compulsion!

Sri Aurobindo: Not only compulsion but subservience to Germany!

Purani: Italy and Germany are holding out threats to Greece; it is said Germany wants to march into Greece, after Romania!

Sri Aurobindo: But how? Through Yugoslavia? Is that why the Yugoslavian Prime Minister has gone to Turkey? They can march through Romania too but it is difficult. Perhaps for a joint action Italy has held up her operations in Egypt.

Evening

The newspaper said that Vinoba had given three or four speeches and had made up a programme of addressing other meetings.

Sri Aurobindo: Vinoba is having the time of his life! His speeches are so inoffensive and colourless that I don’t see how anybody can arrest him. He can’t change his phrases for fear of falling into violence!

Purani: The evening papers have put in a placard like Gandhi’s new movement! Don’t know what that new movement is!

Sri Aurobindo: Because Vinoba has not been arrested? Perhaps he thinks it is a crime on the Government’s part not to arrest him?