Nirodbaran

Talks with Sri Aurobindo

Volume 1

10 December 1938 – 14 January 1941

19 June 1940

Purani: The Berlin paper says that when Germany asked for peace in the last war, the Allies did not reply for six weeks. Why should they now expect a reply in two days? Let them remember Versailles.

Sri Aurobindo: Then what the Mother says may be true, that the Germans will keep silent so that the French Army may be crushed in the meantime.

Purani: Churchill says in his speech that almost all the British troops – about three-and-a-half lakhs – have been removed from Dunkirk in a few days.

Sri Aurobindo: Three-and-a-half lakhs? Then he must be referring to the Flanders troops. For if they had sent such a big army the French people would not have quarrelled over insufficient British help.

Nirodbaran: But it has been said, “three-and-a-half lakhs during these few days”.

Sri Aurobindo: There must be some confusion. Pavitra may have made some mistake. Churchill is usually very clear in his statements.

Nirodbaran: In some papers there was a complaint against inadequate supplies to France.

Purani: That can’t be true after Churchill’s speech.

Sri Aurobindo: No. They sent three-and-a-half lakhs to Flanders and their best troops. After the Battle of Flanders, they sent only three divisions and Churchill has already said that it would take a long time to recover from the Flanders disaster. He asked that they should be properly equipped. Without the proper equipment it is sheer foolishness to send troops to fight against Germany. He promised Reynaud that he would send fifty thousand men and all available help.

Purani: Besides, the British have to keep a sufficient number to protect their own land.

Sri Aurobindo: Of course. Otherwise there would be a great danger. No, no, it is all French over-sensitiveness and suspiciousness. This is exactly what happened during the reign of Napoleon III – different political parties playing at governing the country and that is how he was defeated.

Purani: There is still a notion among people that England will fight to the last Frenchman.

Satyendra: If that is so why are they calling France to unite with them?

Sri Aurobindo: They may be saying that to make France another dominion.

Satyendra: But England sent her best troops and equipment to Flanders.

Sri Aurobindo: Quite so; besides, if France falls, England knows that it will be difficult for her to survive.

Purani: Some eye-witness describes that there is no organisation, no equipment in the French Army. They do not know what is happening. They think that a truce has been declared; so fighting has stopped and Germany is marching rapidly to take advantage of the situation.

Nirodbaran: And the troops have also become demoralised after the truce proclamation.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, the loss at Flanders, the capitulation of Paris and the truce have demoralised them. They may be thinking, “What is the use of being killed when we are going to surrender tomorrow?” Of course as soldiers they will fight, but not with heart.

England has not shown any military genius but she has shown power of organisation while France has shown neither military nor organisational power. Gamelin is a fraud and Weygand and Pétain too old. Weygand has done nothing remarkable. Neither has any other military genius shown himself.

Purani: England is now preparing vigorously.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, if Hitler gives them one more year, they will become tremendously powerful. Both Daladier and Chamberlain seem to be impotent. They have done nothing at all.

The Mother says that Hitler has asked for all French colonies contiguous to the British. That means we go to Germany. (Laughter)

Nirodbaran: I do not think Hitler has heard the name of Pondicherry.

Sri Aurobindo: Oh yes. He knows every detail. In Germany they have schools for giving people such training and they know every town, every street in France and England. In the Kaiser’s time, it is said, he knew even the location of trees in some places. Now it is more thorough. Japan and Germany are the most thoroughly organised countries.

Evening

Satyendra: Some people here say that nothing happens without the sanction of the Divine Will and that nothing happens against Sri Aurobindo’s will. I want to know if that is so. Germany’s taking Czechoslovakia, Poland and other countries and bringing about the war – was all this sanctioned by your will? You said at that time you did not want war.

Sri Aurobindo: The will was that there must be no war. But I didn’t want this will to be effected at the cost of betraying Czechoslovakia. Is the fighting going on in France due to my will? It is due to her own Karma.

Satyendra: That is what I thought but you seem to have written to somebody that no major event happens against your will.

Sri Aurobindo: To whom and when have I written that?

Purani: Oh, I know. I think he is referring to Dilip’s letter. You once wrote to him during the Abyssinian war that you have seen that whenever you have willed something, invariably it has been fulfilled.

Sri Aurobindo: That is a different matter. I willed in my boyhood that Ireland and Alsace-Lorraine should be free. Then I willed things which I forgot and afterwards they were fulfilled. Again, other things I willed, which I now don’t want to be fulfilled, but they have been and in a way which I don’t want. I wanted the British Empire to be crushed and Hitler is now doing it in such a thorough fashion that I don’t want it any more because Hitler has become a greater danger. (Laughter) Does it mean I willed that my leg should be broken? Or that France should be defeated?

Satyendra: That is what I said to them.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, but that does not mean the absence of consent. The Divine may consent to things and events happening, whose results may not be favourable for the present, but may lead to some utility in the future. The Divine doesn’t see things from the human mental point of view or only from the present and immediate results. Perhaps people think that the Divine is like a super-Mussolini according to whose Will everything must turn. When a person descends to do some particular work for the Divine, he accepts the play of forces and works through that play so that ultimately the Divine Will may prevail and fulfil itself; for a time the opposing forces may conquer and the Divine Will withdraw, as is said in the Bhagavad Gita. Did not Sri Krishna have to leave the battle? The Divine foresees and provides for everything in the original plan but that plan is carried out through the play of forces whatever the ultimate purpose is. The Divine does not take up each particular thing and say that it must be done, that it must happen and so on – unless there is some Supreme Vision to be imperatively carried out.

Satyendra: Besides, when he comes down into limited matter he himself becomes limited to some extent.

Sri Aurobindo: That limitation is a self-imposed limitation. Christ knew that he would be crucified and yet it was not the whole of him that wanted crucifixion. Some human part didn’t want it and he prayed, “O God, let this cup be passed to somebody else.” Everything that happens can be said to happen according to the Divine Will.

Satyendra: That is a religious idea.

Sri Aurobindo: Only people who have reached a certain stage of consciousness can say that. For they see and know what is behind the play of things. For others it is only faith. And faith is sometimes very ignorant.

Nirodbaran: Have you read Arthur Moore’s article? He has pleaded very strongly for Dominion Status.

Satyendra: Many Europeans are now supporting it.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, it is only the bureaucracy, tied up in its old tradition and routine, that doesn’t see things that way.