Nirodbaran

Talks with Sri Aurobindo

Volume 1

10 December 1938 – 14 January 1941

20 June 1940

Nirodbaran: Japan is talking of sending an expeditionary force to Indo-China.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes. The Governor there has intimated that he will resist.

Purani: There are plenty of Pondicherry people in the army there.

Nirodbaran: They have no chance against the Japanese Army.

Sri Aurobindo: Bulloch has said that the Indians can very quickly learn the technical side of warfare. Provided they get proper leadership, with sympathy and understanding, they can make very good soldiers.

Nirodbaran: Will England help – if the Governor asks – against Japan?

Sri Aurobindo: Can’t say. England can help only with her navy. She has no troops there. Japan will attack overland. But if Japan attacks Indo-China, it will be the last straw on America’s back. America won’t tolerate Japan in the Pacific, just as during the Dutch East Indies question.

Nirodbaran: Japan may have a shot at Pondicherry too.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, but the navy will have to pass through Singapore, Malacca, etc. India will then be between Japan, Germany and Russia.

Satyendra: Russia? Russia is far away and doesn’t show any intention.

Sri Aurobindo: Russia is always silent before she acts. Nobody knows what is in Russia’s mind until the last moment. The same with Japan. It is only now that Japan talks about her aims and objects.

Nirodbaran: Hitler is repeating his old game of asking for plenipotentiaries. In the meantime he intends to crush France.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, she must withdraw her army in time. There is a rumour that even if this Government submits, another Government will be started in London. Algeria will declare independence. The commander of the Middle East will not submit and neither will the navy.

Purani: That will be very good. Hitler can’t stop the navy. Except for the Italian Navy, he has no sea power.

Sri Aurobindo: Three things are important: French gold, her air force and her navy. If the navy falls to Hitler, it will be a difficult time for England.

Purani: Oil reserves also; it is not known what the French have done with them – whether they have destroyed them or if they have fallen into enemy hands. It seems the Pétain Government is Fascist in tendency and wants to make an alliance with Germany and rule over France.

Sri Aurobindo: If Hitler allows. Even then, after taking England he will turn to them and destroy them completely. These people are idiots, not politicians. Hitler has clearly said in his Mein Kampf that France must be crushed. So long as France exists, Germany will be in danger. Hitler first wanted to make friends with England. When that failed, he said he had no enmity with France; his grudge is only against the English. His tactics are very familiar now.

Nirodbaran (After a while): Another indictment against Bose by Bipin Ganguli. It seems that because Bose let out news about the talks of the Working Committee regarding acceptance or non-acceptance of the federation – talks which were confidential – Gandhi and the High Command strongly objected to the federation. It means Gandhi and the others were at one time in favour of accepting the federation.

Sri Aurobindo: Of course. Gandhi and Bulabhai Desai and Satyamurti were discussing it. It is Bose who spoiled it by his untimely disclosure. What Amery has said is true – that if the internal differences were resolved then Dominion Status would be easily granted.

Nirodbaran: But what can Congress do?

Sri Aurobindo: Why? They can take the four Muslim Premiers together – what Azad is doing now – and come to a solution and settle the Dominion Status. Once you get that, it is practically independence, even if that independence is precarious nowadays. It would be the next practical step.

Nirodbaran: Rajagopalachari, I think, would accept it.

Purani: Yes.

Sri Aurobindo: It is only Nehru who would object. He lives in his ideas.

Purani: He may say, for example: “What interest has Japan in Indo-China?” (Laughter)

Sri Aurobindo: What interest had she in China? What interest had Hitler in Uruguay? They have unearthed a plot there which is evidently of Nazi origin.

Satyendra: My paper – the Indian Express (Laughter) – writes in its editorial that Nehru says, “Come to terms with the Muslims anyhow.”

Nirodbaran: He may do quite the opposite the next day.

Satyendra: Yes, as the conditions change.

Sri Aurobindo: That is supramental.

Purani: Rajagopalachari will be willing to accept Dominion Status, I think.

Sri Aurobindo: He is a practical man. Now they are neither doing civil disobedience nor going to the Ministry. Gandhi knows only his Charkha. The Charkha is going to give Swaraj, non-violence, everything – his wonderful “co-ordination” of ideas.

Nirodbaran: Won’t it give realisation of God?

Sri Aurobindo: He has not come to that yet. But he has found the Charkha in the Gita.

If India accepts Dominion Status, that will remove one of the difficulties of America’s joining the war.

Nirodbaran: Is that really true? Some papers, of course, mention it.

Sri Aurobindo: Quite true. Even the British people have said that there is a strong sympathy for India in America. The Americans say, “England is fighting for her imperialism. Why should we fight for her?”

Nirodbaran: Of course, Duff Cooper also admits that there is a strong pro-India sentiment there.

Sri Aurobindo: Then? He is an imperialist. He doesn’t want India to be free. Why should he say that if it were not true?

(after some time) If England goes down, there won’t be any free country left except Russia, Japan, Germany and Italy. I am speaking of the old world. I think the next war will be between Russia and Germany. If Russia finds that England is in a difficult position, then Stalin will put pressure on Turkey and Romania for control of the Black Sea, as he has done with the Baltic states; of course, not without difficulty, for they may resist. Hitler is not likely to keep quiet over the trouble in the Balkans. With Italy’s help he may settle the Balkan problem and that of Asia Minor. Or he may allow Russia a free hand now, knowing that he can settle with her afterwards.

Nirodbaran: Will Pétain hand over France to Hitler?

Sri Aurobindo: These people – (Sri Aurobindo left his sentence incomplete.)

Evening

Purani: The Governor-General of Madagascar has wired the Pondicherry Government that he is not going to accept peace and will fight on. Our Governor also has decided not to accept. And they are going to wire to Pétain not to make peace.

Sri Aurobindo: That will be a great thing. All these telegrams may put some shame into the heart of Pétain. I am afraid the news about the French fleet leaving for an unknown destination is not very reliable. It is American news.

Purani: Some part of the fleet is under the British command. They can prevent it from falling into German hands.

Sri Aurobindo: They can’t force the navy. It is for the navy to decide.

Nirodbaran: They have not given out the names of the envoys.

Sri Aurobindo: No, one of them seems to be Bondain. He is pro-British. It is he who stands for an honourable peace. He is supposed to be a very capable man. It was due to him that the Indo-China bank flourished.

Purani: The envoys may be shouted down by Hitler like Hacha.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, or they may be starved till they agree to sign the terms imposed.

Purani: They can have some food brought to them by parachutists.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, some chemical food to eat surreptitiously. (Laughter)

Nirodbaran: Churchill’s statement is not clear about how many divisions of British troops were sent after the fight in Flanders.

Sri Aurobindo: No, he says three – while he says again that twelve divisions were equipped and that was what France was led to expect. There may be nine divisions fighting in France and these three, making twelve in all.

Purani: Rajagopalachari is speaking of non-cooperation in France. He says the occupied countries may offer non-cooperation to Hitler.

Nirodbaran: He can be sent to preach and practise it.

Sri Aurobindo: He won’t preach very long. He will be given a passport to heaven. (after some time) Japan is not marching to Indo-China yet. She has appealed to the Axis powers to preserve the status quo there.

Purani: Yes, but if France accepts peace, then Japan may grab it.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, of course. It has been a long-standing aim of Japan to drive out the Europeans from the Far East. If she can do that and come to the Far East, the Near East also won’t last very long.

Purani: The Japanese seem to be getting displaced from Chungking.

Sri Aurobindo: That means they don’t have their old strength. In former times, once Japan occupied a place, it was impossible to dislodge her. That shows what happens if one gives up one’s Swadharma. According to the German advice, to grow tall the Japanese are taking raw meat, wearing shoes and adopting other European customs. In former days, eating grains and with bare feet, they used to fight splendidly, as in the Russo-Japanese war. They may have improved their stature by eating meat but they have lost in other ways.

Nirodbaran: If the Italian colonies in Africa could be seized, which does not seem difficult considering the wonderful fighting quality of the Italians, it would be something.

Sri Aurobindo: And if, in addition, the Italian fleet can be smashed, then it would be bad for Germany too. If England can hold on for one year at least, or two winters, there is a chance.